Podcast Archives | Rural Leaders

Dr. Victoria Westbrooke – Connecting agribusiness and policy professionals with farming.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Dr. Victoria Westbrooke, Senior Lecturer in the Department of Land Management and Systems at Lincoln University.

Victoria discusses the Engage Programme, a three-day professional development initiative run in partnership between Lincoln University and Rural Leaders, designed to bridge the gap between agribusiness professionals and on-farm realities.

Victoria offers keen insight into why providing contextual farm knowledge to technology specialists, researchers, environmental professionals, and policy-makers is crucial for helping them apply their expertise effectively.

Episode Transcript

You’ve joined the Ideas That Grow podcast, brought to you by Rural Leaders. In this series, we’ll be drawing on insights from innovative rural leaders to help plant ideas that grow so our regions can flourish. Ideas That Grow is presented in Association with Farmers Weekly.

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly:
I’m your host, Farmers Weekly editor, Bryan Gibson. This week, we’re talking about one of the specialist programmes Rural Leaders offers, the Engage programme run in conjunction with Lincoln University.

With me to discuss it is Dr. Victoria Westbrooke. Kia ora, how are you going?

Dr. Victoria Westbrooke, Senior Lecturer Department of Land Management and Systems, Lincoln University:
Great, thanks.

BG: Good. You’re a senior lecturer at Lincoln. What do you focus on there and what’s your work like?

VW: I’m only focused on farm management. I teach both undergraduate and postgraduate level. I also really enjoy teaching a class on consultancy and extension, again, at the undergrad and postgrad level. That class is really about students being able to use the information they’ve got at Lincoln and work with farmers and others to put their knowledge into practise when they leave Lincoln and to go out into the real world to work.

BG: What was your journey to Lincoln like? What’s your career background?

VW: Well, I actually did my degree at Lincoln a few years ago now. I then spent the first 10 years working as a farm consultant in the Waikato and then worked with AgResearch. So, helping translate science and research into practise. I enjoyed helping farmers reach objectives and just seeing that translation. I think New Zealand is really good at that, and it was great to be a part of it.

The next 10 years was cool. That was overseas. I spent a couple of years in UK, having a look at UK farming systems and indulging in my passion of travel. We then moved to Australia, where I did my PhD and had a look at some farm systems there, which were completely different, merging on tropical systems.

For the last 10 years or so, I’ve been lecturing at Lincoln, again in farm management and extension and doing some research on the side as well. I enjoy working with students and seeing their journeys as they grow.

BG: Did you always know that the food and fibre sector would be where you would work?

VW: I guess so. I really enjoy growing things. I’m a keen gardener and have this most wonderful garden at home, which I’m very lucky for. Love seeing people grow too, seeing ideas work on farms, love seeing farmers get where they want go. That sort of thing gives me a real kick.

A partnership to develop stronger connections with farmers.

BG: Rural Leaders has a pretty close relationship with Lincoln University. Tell me a little bit about how Lincoln contributes to the Rural Leaders programmes.

VW: I guess I can talk about the Engage one as a specific example. What I saw is we had a need for some really good professionals in the sector that may not necessarily have had a farm background. I’m talking about technology people, some researchers, environmental people. I thought, how can we welcome them into the sector and give them some background or context to New Zealand farming systems to turbocharge the knowledge and expertise that they already have. How can we help them to apply it.

When I was working on that, I thought Rural Leaders would be the ideal group to work with. They’ve got a good track record. I found them really excellent. We could sit down throw ideas around. That’s how it worked for me in my situation was just having their expertise, a very strong track record, strongly networked into the industry. For me, they were the ideal partner.

BG: Yeah, I guess one of the key challenges that our food and fibre sector has is that there’s often a feeling among farmers in the field that some of the bureaucrats or other people who are agribusiness professionals or at least having an input into how farming is done in New Zealand, some of them don’t have that knowledge of what it’s like to actually implement these things in the field every day.

Knowledge, confidence and connection in agriculture.

VW: The people that we’ve worked with through Engage, who have participated, are keen to work with farmers and help them work well in New Zealand Inc. That passion is really there. Part of this programme is, how can we help them with some of that context in a way that suits their professional lifestyle and their professional requirements and get them connecting directly with farmers, not through two or three other links.

Some form of experiencing the farmer’s challenges. Initially, I had thoughts of participants spending a day with a farmer in their ute. I’m not sure that was particularly practical for everybody. Again, working with rural leaders, we were able to mould that working with farmers and talking directly with farmers into a three-day, doable programme for everyone that got some of that close connection.

For example, one of the participants was actually staying with me. She came from Wellington, hadn’t spent a lot of time on farms, and simply getting her rugged up to go out for a day on farm in July – she experienced the environment the farmer worked in. Simply making sure she had gloves, hat, mittens, and that kind of thing. That was something that you can’t read about or doesn’t normally land if you read about it. But if you’re going out for a day, it does.

BG: You mentioned people being Wellington-based. A lot of people who are decision-makers or policymakers, that sort of thing, are in the cities. Having that first-hand experience of the farming life must make them a lot more confident or at least know that their day-to-day work will land better with those who are having to implement it.

VW: Yeah, it just provided a real background and that lived experience. We’ve got the Engage programme at three days. The key is the middle day, actually going on farm. They’ve spent a day working together in a discussion group format that Rural Leaders does very well. Then it’s onto a bus and going out to our wonderful host farmer. We’ve had Malcolm Cairns and Hamish Marr. The morning’s out on a mixed arable operation, family-based. Then the afternoon has been going out to Matt Iremonger’s which is more of a focus on dairy and technology.

On one of our first programmes, a lot of the participants were just quite keen to do a bit of calf feeding. We were going to talk about some really high-brow stuff. They saw the calves and they really enjoyed it. Seeing Matt operate Halter, we turned up when the cows were to go for milking. We stood in the paddock and Matt and his manager at the time were driving halter and we could see it. Seeing it then talking about the people who are actually working with it, seeing the cow’s reaction, just that really one-to-one or based experience is really important and really enjoyable.

What to expect from the Engage Programme.

BG: If someone signs up for the Engage programme, maybe just talk through what they can expect when they’re doing it.

VW: Firstly, it’s a really welcoming environment that Rural Leaders provides. It’s facilitated. There’s lots of discussions. It’s not a talk at or dare I say lecture type environment. We definitely didn’t want that. These people are professionals with really impressive skills and expertise. It’s more of a discussion, not a ‘talk to’.

Rural Leaders, through their networks, have got some excellent people for the first day, providing an overview of the global perspective of agriculture. We’ve got some people that wear both a farmer hat and professional hat talking about challenges farmers faced.

Then I talk about farming systems and farm finances. This is very much from the farmer perspective, and as much as possible, there’s people that are actually farmers and involved in there. We’re talking about the whole Ag sector. Often, we work in our own particular area that we’re passionate about. I like Ag extension and consultancy type things, but it’s important to look at the whole package because farmers are faced with a whole package, not just fertiliser, which we may work in, or environment that we may work in. Often, there’s a group dinner, and the discussions there are probably just as important as those held during the day.

Participants have actually met people from different parts of the sector as well. The highlight for me has always been the day on farm, which I’ve just briefly discussed. So out in the bus, take lunch, and talking directly with the farmers. We go and have morning tea with them. They take us around their farm. The farmers are experienced talking to groups, but they’re still at the coalface. Those visits tend to go a little bit into the areas that participants are interested in. The final day is two-thirds of a day. There’s a talk about reflection about what they found on farm, Māori land ownership and perspectives. That’s a really good session. Then we talk about rural communities. The reason for that is, again, looking at the whole picture that farmers are sitting within not just one particular aspect. Then there’s finishing up looking at environmental consulting, but that can vary depending on the group.

Looking at the whole farming system.

BG: You mentioned the rural communities. That’s really important because I think some people sitting off remotely would view a farm as a set of financial budgets or a catchment for nutrients and water cycling and that sort of thing. But in actual fact, it’s a place where a family lives. There are neighbours, there are schools, there are rugby clubs. Those things are what sustains farming communities.

VW: Yeah, it’s that whole system, that environment, looking at it, that’s really important. I think we get passionate about as a profession, our own particular area. This is a chance to look at the whole system from a farmer’s perspective. You may get an appreciation of where your particular passion area sits within the farmer’s world type thing. Why are they not as passionate as you about your area? Well, this is where it sits for a farmer and how it fits with their bigger thing.

We had one person who is looking at offering a technology service on farm, and he went away delighted because he could then see where his technology offering could fit for farmers, what from a farmer’s perspective might spin their wheels, save them time, whatever. He said, Okay, he will now develop his offering in that way to fit more with what a farmer may actually want. He understood why they may be reluctant to take his technology offering from his business.

BG: That’s amazing because you see it time and again, someone turns up with what they feel is like the latest game-changing bit of tech that’s going to change farming. But when it actually comes to implementing it on farm, they perhaps haven’t had that close contact to know if it’s working in with the other things that happen day to day on a farm.

VW: Yeah, it’s this massive load of cogs all in to react and big clockwork mechanism in an old analogue clock. They all interweave together.

Looking closer at the Engage Programme.

BG: One of the things that comes up-time and again in these chats I have with people who have been involved in Rural Leaders programmes is that the course itself is great, but one of the great pieces of value you get from it is the network and the connections you make while you’re on the course. That seems to be the case here, too.

VW: It’s not as long as Kellogg or some of the other courses. It is a three-day course. That was deliberate because when we did our initial research, we got strong feedback that because it’s a face-to-face course, we had to recognise the time limitations people have in professional life. That’s why we came up with the three-day programme because we did want to keep it face-to-face.

Rural leaders are passionate about that, which I agree with, because then you can actually talk directly to people. I think the group dinner and the way that it’s facilitated lets people meet from different aspects. We’ve had people that have reconnected or got a list of people that if they need somebody in this different area, they now have somebody that they can contact to do that. So, yeah, that’s another important part of sharing.

BG: When we pull back and look at the bigger picture of New Zealand’s food and fibre sector, we are having big conversations about how to develop people into leadership roles. Sometimes you can look at it as there’s farmers who come up through industry bodies, and there’s agribusiness professionals who maybe have a more academic path. The Engage system, to me, seems to be a way to bring that together.

VW: Yeah, it’s, again, the people that are passionate about the food and fibre sector have some wonderful skills and knowledge that we very much need. I’m really hoping we’ll provide them with the confidence to go on to some of those leadership roles with just that wee bit more contextual knowledge or the farmer’s view.

The other thing is some people coming on the programme work with one particular group of farmers, and this is, again, just broadening out for that background and context. So hopefully, it’s part of their leadership journey. They also know how Rural Leaders operate then through the programme, so they can have a taster of what our future work with Rural Leaders may look like. That’s useful as well, I think.

BG: Yeah, I guess it gives people a bit more empathy with the people who might be end users of either the product or the policy that they are working on, you get a better understanding of how that lands, what that means for someone’s day-to-day life, that thing.

If someone’s keen in finding out more about the Engage programme or perhaps signing up, what’s the next step for them?

VW: Rural Leaders They have an excellent website, and they have all of the details there. My understanding is the Engage programme will be running next year.

The other option is Rural Leaders have customised the programme and can do so for particular groups. For ASB, they work with their rural managers who really wanted to focus on environmental aspects. They took out the day on farm because those rural managers are constantly out on farm. That programme was adapted for them. They’ve also worked with the Ellett Trust and other groups there to develop a programme specifically for scientists and researchers to communicate with farmers. That customisation option is available as well.

BG: Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders’ podcast presented in Association with Farmers Weekly. For more information on Rural Leaders, the Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarship, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, the Engage Programme and the Value Chain Innovation Programme, please visit ruralleaders.co.nz.

Richard Green – time to think differently about our food and fibre value chains.

In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Richard Green, farmer, director and 2025 Value Chain Innovation Programme alum.

Richard discusses his background and his Value Chain Innovation Programme experience.

Richard offers keen insight into why understanding value chains and value chain models is so important for anyone wanting to take advantage of the opportunities New Zealand Inc. and farming have to integrate our value chains and think globally.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly:
You’ve probably heard of the Nuffield and the Kellogg Programmes, but Rural Leaders has some other programmes it administers as well. One of those is the Value Chain Innovation Programme, which is open for applications until 23 November. The programme runs in early February (2026).

With me to talk about the programme today is Richard Green, who did it earlier this year. Richard, how’s it going?

Richard Green, 2025 Value Chain Innovation Programme.
Cool, thanks, Bryan.

BG: Tell me a little bit about yourself. What do you do for a crust? Where do you live?

A diverse background in and out of food and fibre.

RG: I live just out of Christchurch, actually, in a little place called Ladbrooks, which is just on the edge of the town boundary on a few acres. But I’ve had a really interesting career to date Bryan. I’ve done lots of things, but I spent the first 10 years of my career as a farm consultant, working in the farm gate, helping businesses achieve their objectives and family farming businesses, generally.

Then the next 10 years of my career was pretty much involved beyond the farm gate, and I was involved quite deeply in the seed industry. We owned a company called Agricom, a couple of us, and we ended up selling that into PGG Wrightson Seeds. Then I ran the international business for PGG Wrightson Seeds for about five years.

Then the next The next 10 years, a bit longer actually, if I’m honest, perhaps the next 15 years, I’ve stepped out of day to day, been involved in businesses, and ended up doing a lot of governance and working across a large number of businesses. Those mainly in the agri and food sector, but a few not-for-profits and a few outside agriculture.

We’ve been deeply involved in retirement villages and commercial property and honey businesses as well, my wife and I.

BG: Yeah, so quite a diverse background. One of those governance roles you had was with Rural Leaders.

RG: Yeah, correct. When I left PGG Wrightson Seeds to stay connected with a lot of networks, I actually applied for a role. Nuffield at the time were advertising for a CE, and I applied for that role for a day a week. I did that for three years and then was involved with the trustees and pulling Kellogg into the Rural Leaders’ framework and setting up Rural Leaders. And then I was on the board for a few years after that with Rural Leaders.

I was also involved in AGMARDT and in FAR, as trustee in AGMARDT and then director on FAR, Foundation Arable Research. And both those are quite involved in Kellogg, particularly. And to speak with a lot of Kelloggers doing their projects, I think it’s absolutely fascinating, they have such good insights they get as to how the industry operates and where the opportunities are for them to add value to.

BG: The Value Chain Programme, a lot of people might not know a lot about it. That obviously offers in-depth insights into how our food and fibre sector operates, doesn’t it?

Why do the Value Chain Innovation Programme?

RG: Yes, and probably, Bryan, the more time I spend in the industry, the more I realise that we can do so much within the farmgate, and I still believe there’s lots of opportunities to improve there with technology. But a lot of the growth and the value that we can create will actually be beyond the farm gate.

The way we set an industry up to succeed, and then the way we get market signals back and align behind behaviour through the whole industry. For me, that’s why the Value Chain course, I decided this time last year, I guess, that it was something I wanted it to do.

I chair the joint venture between Headwaters and Alliance Meats, which forms the Lumina Land Programme. I’m deeply involved in that value chain. I was really looking for insights as to how do other industries operate, what’s best in class look like, even those industries that we are going really well, what would they like to change if they could wave a magic wand? I wanted to learn from everyone else that was going on the same journey as me, and so that’s why I applied.

BG: What’s actually involved when you signed up to the course? What actually happens?

What happens on the Value Chain Innovation Programme?

RG: Well, it was actually even signing up was quite an interesting process, and I assume it’s still the same, but you had to explain yourself, talk about yourself, and what you wanted to achieve out of doing the course. I probably should go back and read that again.

The process started, for us it was slightly earlier, I think this programme’s in February ’26, whereas ours was late January ’25. It involved a week of immersion in businesses and visiting businesses. I think the programme’s basically the same. We met in Hawke’s Bay on a Sunday morning, and we spent the Sunday with Professor Hamish Gow, facilitating a process talking about almost the academic view on value chains and also grounding that with his experience globally.

Those frameworks, and particularly one called the value discipline framework, that has been so helpful for me in the 10 months since then. I’ve used it so frequently as a way of thinking about value chains. Then during the week, we referred back to those models we talked about on that Sunday all the way through.

I think there’s circa 12 or 14 people on the course, all from different parts of New Zealand, all from different industries, all different ages and stages. So, actually learning their story is always a big key part of that.

And then we spent a full-on day looking in Hawke’s Bay at three different Apple businesses operating within the Apple industry, all operating slightly differently. One being TNG Global, one being Rockit, and one being Mr. Apple.

Then we drove all the way through to Rotorua that night on the bus, plus had a diversion or had an accident on the Napier Taupo Road, so we had to sit there for a couple of hours, so, we had plenty of time to talk on the bus. That’s where you really unpick the day and get everyone’s different views.

Then we spent a day and a half looking at the whole kiwifruit industry, right from R&D and new varieties, right on farm, right through the industry issues, biosecurity issues, and then deep into Zespri, or sorry, pack houses before Zespri, and then Zespri as to where their growth opportunities are, where their challenges are, and actually looking at this hugely successful industry, looking at understanding where it came from. It was a deregulated industry in the ’80s, and it was failing.

And then we went over the hill to Waikato, looked at the dairy industry, a deep-dive, the same way we did with kiwifruit, right from R&D, the milk testing station, on-farm, factories, and then where Fonterra is going. It was the Fonterra value chain we studied.

Then we also looked at the meat industry with Greenlea (Premier) Meats, and that was fascinating insight. Then we also talked about technology and how technology could disrupt value chains going forward. Then we had some case study learnings at the end of it. By the time we left on the Saturday, we were inspired, had new ways of thinking, but we were also pretty buggered!

Understanding value chains.

BG: You mentioned it earlier, as you say, lots of farmers or people in food and fibre know a lot about how to produce food on farm, how to grow grass or how to grow kiwifruit or apples, that sort of thing. But once someone comes and picks it up, a lot happens. And understanding how that works and the challenges that those who are processing and marketing our produce face, that’s really good to have a good understanding of that across the It’s a small sector, isn’t it?

RG: Yeah, and I actually now understand better also, Bryan, as a farmer sitting within the farmgate, you also need to understand who you partner with. Because how your partner is setting themselves up to win, and I use this word sitting in yourself up to win quite often because you’ve actually got to work out where your niche is right through the value chain and how you can leverage that niche to be successful. Because the profits can’t flow back to the farm unless your partner in the value chain is successful. There’s different ways of being successful. There’s no one way.

The thing we learned is some are successful because they innovate around products, and Zespri is one of them, and they have unique products, controlled by IP and they’re champions at bringing on new products to solve customer problems.

Some innovate around customers and work back from customers to solve their problems. It might be through consistency of a product or timing of delivery or something. They work back the whole value chain to solve customers’ challenges. Some, which is historically what we’ve been really good at in New Zealand, has been the lowest cost producers and providing value with a certain quality standard for the customer.

And so they are the only three areas you can win in. And the insight was you can be successful in two, but never in three. And so as a farmer, you have to know what’s your partner in the value chain, how they’re aligned themselves to win, and whether that meets what you see as you want to do, because you have to be aligned to a similar value discipline as them. So we don’t do a lot of discussion about that and talking about that because we only look at our part of the value chain.

So I think that’s what I found invaluable, and everyone on the course found invaluable, just that ability to look up and down the whole value chain and actually think about how does everyone win and how could we win far greater together if we actually work together different or better.

BG: It is so important to have that alignment of ideology, I guess. Everyone needs to know where you’re going and what your goals are. Otherwise, if you don’t get that aligned, then the chain breaks.

RG: We find that very much within our Lumina Land Programme. We’re a customer-intimacy type value chain – I worked out. I didn’t actually know that beforehand, but I probably did, but then you have a model to wrap it around. So transparency and alignment around everyone’s goals and financial incentives to align everyone around, that’s pretty important, too.

So I got considerable value and as a side note, Bryan, I always believe, and I absolutely believe, I’ve done a lot of personal development over my career, and I always tell people that there’s a 10 times return on investment. So whatever I invest, I can get 10X on that, I believe, within the next two or three years. I absolutely believe they are this Value Chain (Innovation) Programme.

I got so inspired by it I’ve committed to doing one this next January at Harvard, actually, which is a lot more expensive than the Value Chain programme, but it just has made me realise that the opportunities we’ve got as New Zealand Inc. and farming to actually integrate our value chains better and think a lot more globally.

BG: I actually never thought myself about those three ways to win, but you know it subconsciously. Giving it names and putting models and theory around it is something else again.

Think differently. Get inspired.

RG: The interesting thing is, Bryan, that all our training, my training through Lincoln, and I assume still now, and all our teachings, actually, we’re taught how to perform and operate in the operational excellence space. But it’s actually jumping that chasm and actually working back from customers and thinking of it quite differently, about marketing, about branding and around IP. We lack skills in those areas, and we lack ways to finance some of that, too. So that’s been a limitation to growing some of those business models.

I think we actually need to think a lot more like that and actually work out how we build skills in each of these. To me, there’s no right or wrong value discipline. It’s just whatever you do, you’ve got to do exceptionally well, and you’ve got to be able to carve out a niche and a point of difference from all your competitors by doing it well.

BG: In terms In terms of value chains, we quite often, in our thinking, focus on the food producer and the marketer or last seller at the end of the chain. But those things like processing the packhouses, the packaging, the transport, all that stuff, it’s not very sexy, I guess, but it’s so important.

RG: It’s absolutely critical. I can talk from experience around our Lumina Lamb, which is a partnership between the farmers with their genetics and their farming system, which is a codified farming system and the unique feed we put. Then the processor, which is Alliance Meats, and they’re processing and timely processing, where it’s all forecasted.

Also their ability to process the cuts that were required, to collect the offal when we’re trying to add value on offal and pelts, and then the transportation issues, which are huge on a global basis to get, whether it’s a container or a carton in the market. Then right through to how you partner with, in our case, chefs in food service, and how you get access to that. And yet in a big long chain, one breakdown can absolutely kill the whole chain. And so everyone’s just as important as each other, or it doesn’t work.

BG: It sounds like this programme would suit anyone in food and fibre. Everyone works in their own little space in the chain. But if you want to know about the rest of the links, then this is the course for you, I guess.

RG: What would make it really excellent, cost a lot more. But if you could get offshore and follow right back from the customer, that’s the only missing bit in that. But that’s just another level in terms of cost and time. But I think for everyone producing food, it ends up in a value chain.

Anyone who’s considering how their value chain could be optimised and having the ability to think and talk at those levels with directors, whether it’s co-ops or the companies they supply.

But even comparing and contrasting across industries. I mean, why do we see the kiwifruit industry as being successful and potentially the dairy industry versus sheep and beef? Versus the apples industry? What could we learn out of that?

Why is Rockit? What’s their target market in their niche versus Mr. Apple? How are they carving out different business models? If Anyone interested in business is really valuable. Anyone interested in sitting there saying, How do I develop skills to work out who I partner with in the future from my farm business? I think it’s very valuable.

BG: Yeah, and it has that in the field, practical, Here’s what we’re doing as a business aspect to it, but also, Hamish gives you the theory to look at it critically.

RG: Yeah, and the majority of the people in the course, when I did it last year, were practical farmers. All of us came from within the farm gate way of thinking, and we were trying to stretch ourselves beyond. That was the beauty. We’re actually all very similar from our backgrounds, although we’re from all different industries.

BG: Excellent. As I said earlier, the next value chain programme, applications are open until the 23rd of November, and the programme runs from the 8th to the 14th of February next year.

Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in Association with Farmers Weekly. For more information on Rural Leaders, the Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarship, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, and the Value Chain Innovation Programme, please visit Ruralleaders.co.nz

Hamish Murray podcast - Building stronger on-farm teams

Hamish Murray: Building stronger on-farm teams by getting out of the way.

In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Thomas Holmes, arable farmer and a 2024 Kellogg Scholar.

Thomas discusses his family farm’s evolution, overseas experience, his Kellogg research report and his Kellogg experience.

Thomas unpacks his report’s ‘what next’ view of arable farming in Canterbury.

He discusses profitability challenges, diversification, and integration with other sectors. Thomas advocates collaboration, mindset change, and leadership from younger farmers to adapt to climate, market, and technological shifts.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly:
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Bryan Gibson, the Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly, your host, as always. With me on the show this week, we’ve got a very recent Kellogg scholar, Thomas Holmes, arable farmer from Canterbury. G’day, Thomas. How’s it going?

Thomas Holmes, Arable Farmer, 2024 Kellogg Scholar:
Good, thank you. How are you doing?

BG: Pretty good. You did the Kellogg programme just last year?

TH: Yes, I was in cohort one in 2024, #52 was our cohort. It’s still fairly fresh in the mind.

BG: Have you recovered?

TH: I think the brain has. It’s a lot. It’s a full-on programme. You can’t really mentally prepare for it. It’s one thing going in there with all these perceived ideas, but it’s another just sitting there and listening. It’s very eye-opening. It takes a lot of time.

Family Farm Background and Evolution

BG: You’re obviously an arable farmer. Tell me a little bit about your journey there. Did you grow up on a farm?

TH: Yes. I’m a fifth-generation mixed-growing farmer in Methven. My family has been there for coming up 150 years, one of the founding families of the local township. The farm has decreased over the generations. It started off at around 6000 acres. We’re now down to about 550. It’s the journey of succession and having a farm for a long time. It gets smaller and has changed a lot.

I guess when I was on the farm full-time, we were doing mixed arable, so just doing many crops, about 300 hectares of crops, 650 bull beef. So, finishing to 600kg plus and 2000 lambs. But recently, in the last year, we’ve downscaled. Just the family farm’s left, so it’s about 220 hectares. It’s a never-ending change, really. What’s next? There’s a lot going on in the industry, and it’s working out what, individually, you can do.

Career Path and International Experience

BG: Did you always know or want to carry on the family farm?

TH: I did the typical Lincoln Uni, Ag-Sci. I went farming straight out of uni. I did various jobs overseas and here, everything from large-scale arable farming in the UK, in Canada, and a big beef finishing farm in Scotland. I’ve dabbled in robotic milking, did a little bit of organic cropping, and then worked on a large-scale farm in Dore, which gets all the processed vegetables, and then the family farm.

I’ve always wanted to be a farmer, and I think it’s a fantastic career. Obviously, at the moment, the arable industry is at a lull. I think it’s still a fantastic industry. Growing crops, growing animals, I think it’s probably the best job in the world, but it just doesn’t pay that well at the moment, so you have to do everything that you can to make it work.

Kellogg Research Focus: The Future of Arable Farming

BG: Touching on your Kellogg report, you look to see some ways for the success of arable farming in Canterbury in the future. Obviously, as you mentioned, times are pretty tough for arable farmers right now. But what brought you to that topic?

TH: I wanted to really dive into the sector. It wasn’t necessarily the dynamics. It was more about ‘what next for the sector’ because the profitability side of things has not improved for a long time. It’s been hidden with growers increasing yield to basically beat inflation, and inflation has caught up. We’re in a situation where we can’t really out-compete inflation. There needs to be more options available to growers, whether it’s different crops or different opportunities that aren’t necessarily arable.

I guess it got me thinking, ‘where do growers see themselves in the next 25-50 years?’ I was looking at my career, lifetime and beyond. It’s really easy to look a year ahead or two years ahead. But I thought, well, why don’t we just push it to 25-50, because people don’t think like that, necessarily. And this industry is very much on the point where they are at a crossroads. They need to make some real dramatic changes to actually improve the profitability for the growers to enable them to still do what they love to do, and that’s grow crops. They’re mixed, so they have animals, but predominantly, their passions are machinery and growing crops for the end users.

I think that’s what really drove me to look at ‘what next for the industry’, where are we going and where are the opportunities as a sector as growers. To work together was my thing, being involved in a few discussion groups. With FAR Growers Leading Change groups, it’s really important to have those connections and talk to growers of similar ages and stages, and some of them are of similar sizes and bigger, but they’re all in that same boat of ‘what does the arable sector look like’, because you can’t just keep on doing what we’re doing.

Farmer Perspectives: Looking 25-50 Years Ahead

BG: You mentioned that we’re not very good at thinking further out, and you were looking 25 to 50 years. What was the range of views you got when you talked to arable farmers?

TH: For a lot of them, they were taken back by that view, because at that current time, last year, we had one of the wettest harvests in history, and people were pretty, dare I say, depressed and a little bit in a slump. It wasn’t the best timing to do a Kellogg, but I knew it was going to be a challenge to talk to them. Because from my opinion, when you’re in the lowest point, you usually make some very strategic decisions because you need to. You can’t carry on doing what you’re doing, so you’ve got to get out of the hole and change. A lot of them were like, ‘we’re looking at diversification. We’re looking at off-farm income in some way, shape, or form’.

And then there was guys that were looking at doing berry fruits or apples. They looked at the analysis. At the moment, it doesn’t work for them, but they’re looking beyond arable, a lot of them. And some of the guys that I interviewed are already at that stage, they’re doing processed vegetables, they’re doing onions, potatoes, carrots, and their specialty seeds as well. But they’re looking beyond arable because the margins just don’t stack up. But they’re important to be part of any rotation. You need your cereals, you need your grass, you need clover in your crop rotation to keep the system going, but it wasn’t necessarily their money maker. It’s a harsh reality of things and I think growers understand that. There’s a lot that do deer grazing or beef animals, a lot do lamb finishing when it stacks up financially.

So they’re always doing something different to enable them to do what they love. And I think that’s the key point. And maybe that takes away the value of ‘I’m an arable farmer’, but the reality is, you’re still an arable farmer, you’re just going to be a very diverse arable farmer – more integrated with multi-different revenues coming off farm. And Arable might not bring a lot to the table. But at the core, I think that’s where people get a bit frustrated, because it’s what they love, and it’s a hard thing to watch. But you’ve got to make the right choices.

Key Recommendations: Integration and Collaboration

BG: Obviously, there was diversity of opinion amongst the people you talked to. You wrapped it all up in your report and came up with a set of recommendations?

Integration with Other Agricultural Sectors

TH: My recommendations for the industry was looking at when you become more integrated as a sector, and we’re already well-integrated into dairy with providing your specialty seeds, so your grass, your clovers, your straw. A lot do grazing. So you’re already there. There’s opportunities to be more integrated into your chicken and pig operations. I think there’s a real opportunity for the likes of your trading of straw for nutrients. The one thing that crop farmers need is nutrients to grow crops, and it might not be the usual thing, but it’s a common practise overseas to spread cattle muck and pig muck and chicken muck. And it’s not really a common practise here in the arable sense. I think it’s that trading of nutrients. It’s looking at how we can integrate into their supply chains and be part of that because, individually, Arables is not going to do it, and we need to be smart about that.

Breaking Down Competitive Barriers

TH: Another one was probably looking at collaboration. I think the big thing with the industry being so small, we’re very competitive, we’re very individualistic. We compete for contracts. It gets pretty cutthroat at points, especially when there’s not a lot of contracts around. Some clover markets, especially, are very tightly held, very contestable, and at the moment, still in a slump overseas with oversupply from Europe and America. We’re looking at another year or so of actual tough times.

I think that’s where, in the industry, groups need to actually form to collaborate, whether that’s through sharing machinery, going together to buy input costs, to go bulk, to get a little bit cheaper deals, share chemistry. That mindset, I think, really needs to change because we’re so focused on doing our own stuff, growing our own crops. When the reality is, I’m in a group of ten people, different farms within ten kilometres of Methven, and we’re all pretty similar sizes, similar operations. There’s a little bit of difference, obviously, but there’s no reason why we can’t actually work together.

You could buy a bigger machine, cultivator, and go cultivate all these guys’ crops. We’ll do the ground prep and all that stuff. You could just do that. Builders don’t just do our own thing. It’s just very set. It comes down to control, but also it’s your farm, you do what you want to do. But that’s the mindset that I think needs to change of where we can actually work in together, help each other out, actually spread the costs over a large area. And contractors do that. That’s why they’re so successful in terms of their scale, because they’ve got so much land they’re actually covering, doing various jobs with people that don’t have time.

Overcoming Traditional Barriers

TH: Farmers just don’t do that. They don’t seem to do it. I think it becomes too hard because if you own a piece of machinery with somebody and someone breaks it, then it gets into a bit of a fight on who’s paying for what. Maybe there needs to be systems in place that you can just split the costs. That’s why a number of growers are involved in it. It’s just this simple mindset change that I just don’t think is there, but it needs to be.

The Challenge of Farm Independence Culture

BG: It comes up a lot, and it’s often a hurdle that’s hard to clear in the food and fibre sector. It goes back to that traditional feeling of whatever’s inside the boundary of these fences is mine, and I am the sovereign of what happens here. People have trouble taking advice from people that maybe they don’t trust or having the government tell them how to do things. That’s a pretty hard barrier to break through.

TH: Yes, I think so. But if you go back 100 years or so, you had 50 men and women on your farm doing your work for you. Why is that any different? It’s just in a modern context. But I feel it’s just the community has changed. Over time, obviously, you’ve got different people coming in and out. Farm communities are very tight, but they’re not tight in the respect that they’re actually working together. There’s obviously aspects of it across the country, and there’s communities that are doing really well, and they do work together, but I don’t see it enough, especially in the arable sector.

I question a lot, and it’s more what can you do about it to make some of these things actually improve the bottom line? Because ultimately, it is about the bottom line for arable. I think that was the main challenge: profitability. A lot of these opportunities are about helping to solve profitability, not necessarily entirely solve the profitability issue. It’s not going to be one thing. It’s going to have to be a magnitude of things to actually make any real change.

Personal Leadership Development Through Kellogg

BG: Now, as well as the scholar report, obviously, the Kellogg programme is focused on leadership development. How has that changed you? How do you approach life and work now you’ve got these tools in the toolkit?

TH: For me, I just take any opportunity I can to do projects. For work, to use the knowledge that I’ve got, but also to just put my hand up for things. Locally, I’m involved with my local catchment group. It’s in the farm, it goes through the farm. We’ve got a bit of a potential flooding issue with the creek. It’s just actively getting involved in the community a bit more. Also just keeping involved in those Grower Leading Change groups is really important to keep a bit more stabilisation on what’s going on on the ground. For me, long term, it’s looking at opportunities in leadership. I think there needs to be more people, dare I say, my age on those boards because we are the future.

The reality is people my age and younger than me are the ones that are going to be farming in the next 35 to 40 years, 50 years. It’s actually getting their opinions across, and I think that’s probably something that I’m very passionate about, actually getting our seat at the table and getting our opinions heard because we haven’t got 30 or 40 years life experience or business experience. You’ve got to start somewhere and I think that’s really about putting your hand up and not being afraid to actually just try things. Well, this podcast. I think it’s good to be able to get your opinion across. It’s a different way of messaging, really.

The Need for Disruption and Adaptation

BG: Like you say, your studies discovered that there needed to be some change or some new thinking in the arable sector. It takes people to usher that in or help get that message across and get the wheels turning for that to happen.

Adapting to Climate and Market Changes

TH: I think so. You’ve got to disrupt the system. It’s not necessarily about criticising what the system is. It’s about actually looking at, well, ‘are we fit for purpose? Do we actually need to change?’ And the reality is we do. And I think that’s been pretty apparent in the last decade with the likes of trade, the likes of volatility we’ve had with the weather, the way harvests have been. We need to change how we do things because we’re not getting the same climatic conditions that we had in the early 1980s and 1990s. The Nor’westers aren’t as prominent. We’re not actually getting the great harvest of those days. It’s certainly not as hot where I am in summer as it used to be.

We need to change how we farm with all that technology and what’s coming for us. I think there’s plenty of other opportunities for arable to be part of that story, whether it’s plant proteins or these new food trends that are coming forward. We need to be part of that story instead of just the guys that grow grain and seed, because we are more from that. I think that’s where we need to actually put a hand up and try. I think that’s probably really taking us off the farm a bit more than we’re comfortable with, because the reality is we need to go beyond what we’re doing. It is changing your mindset and it’s not an easy thing to do.

The Value of Being Challenged

TH: For me, Kellogg has definitely changed my mindset because you become so siloed and rigid in your own thoughts because you just get so set in what you do and how you think, and you think you’re right, and you get challenged. I think it’s fantastic to get challenged because there’s so many people with different opinions from various backgrounds, it just really gives you an open mind. Because no one’s right. It’s just actually just listening to someone else’s opinion. Regardless whether you disagree with it or not, I think it’s actually just it gives you that understanding of where they’re coming from and why they think like that.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to be challenged. I think that in the Ag sector in New Zealand, they need to be challenged because I don’t think they’re necessarily adapting to what is happening out there. I think it is pretty hard to change at the speed that things are going, especially with the tech and the way supply chains are working and the market’s always changing. It is hard, but we need to be a bit more nimble instead of reactive, I think.

Recommendation for the Kellogg Programme

BG: Having more colleagues with that mindset, AKA, going through the Kellogg programme, would be good, so, something you’d recommend to others?

TH: Yes, 100%. I think the Kellogg programme is a fantastic programme. It not only challenges you on your thoughts and your views, but it just gives you an eye into what the food and fibre sector is beyond your sector. You’re in it with like-minded people. It’s a really enjoyable process. I think the big part of it is actually just the networking, the talking to industry leaders in the Chatham House rules sense, where you can get some real open discussions, where you don’t get that in the real world. I think that’s one of the beauties of Kellogg. It opens a lot of doors. I got a lot of interviews just based on that I was doing Kellogg, obviously, being an average farmer helped.

But I think people just love the programme. They think it’s a really great programme. It’s a good thing to do if you want to push yourself to try something different and find a project. If you got a project that you really want to find something about, just do it. I think it’s a great thing to do. Don’t be afraid to change your mind on it either because I think you get challenged, you get on it, and it’s a good learning process.

BG: Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in Association with Farmers Weekly.

Find out more about Ideas That Grow.

Hamish Murray: Building stronger on-farm teams by getting out of the way.

In this episode of The CountryWide Podcast, Sarah Perriam-Lampp talks with Lincoln University’s Professor Hamish Gow about the Value Chain Innovation Programme, delivered by Rural Leaders.

Hamish explains how the programme takes participants inside New Zealand’s dairy, kiwifruit, apple and red meat sectors to understand how value is created, captured and shared, and why the real learning happens on the bus as farmers, entrepreneurs and industry leaders connect and challenge their thinking.

Listen to the episode below, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

CountryWide Podcast Transcript

Sarah Perriam-Lampp, CEO and Editor-in-Chief, CountryWide:
Welcome to another episode of the CountryWide podcast, and catching up with one of my favourite people, Hamish Gow from Lincoln University. Today we’re going to talk about the Value Chain Innovation Programme, something that I absolutely loved doing a few years ago. I’m sure it’s evolved a little bit from the first one?

But I’m really keen to hear about what everyone gets up to on the programme because the deadline to submit your application for 2026 is coming up soon. So, Hamish, can you tell us a little bit about the programme and how it’s evolved?

Hamish Gow, Professor, Lincoln University:
Well, it hasn’t really evolved a lot, right? Because it’s designed to give the participants a model or framework to be able to understand and evaluate value chains and how we create value in those value chains. Then we walk through the four major value chains in New Zealand, two in the livestock sector and two in horticulture.

The Four Value Chains

HG: We walk through the dairy value chain and analyse and evaluate how Fonterra creates economic value for farmers and how that comes back to them. We then walk through the Zespri value chain and look at how that brings value back to both the orchard owners as well as into the other members of it, which are the packhouses, and understand that model. We then look at the apple industry and how that creates value for the growers.

Then finally, we look at the red meat sector and understand how value comes back to farmers and producers in the red meat sector. And around the edges of that, we look at government support, regulation, and legislation, and how that’s enabled some of them and caused constraints on them, and then technology, and how that’s supporting it as well.

It hasn’t changed a lot from when you went on, the only difference is, we’ve gone in reverse. We used to start in Hamilton with the dairy sector and work to the Hawke’s Bay and end with apples. Now we’re starting in the Hawke’s Bay with apples and working our way through to Hamilton and ending with the dairy sector.

Target Participants

SPL: For those who are unfamiliar with it, this is a programme run as part of the Rural Leaders organisation (they look after Kellogg and Nuffield). It is really for quite a wide range of people, getting farmers and growers to look beyond the farm gate, isn’t it? As well as those who work in the sector to fully understand the vertical integration of a value chain.

HG: Yes, it’s aimed at both people who are directors and senior leaders within the industry. So it could be farmers, it could be people inside the processing facilities, it could be marketers who are trying to understand it, it could be entrepreneurs, as well as the government players who are supporting as well as the input providers, bankers, insurance providers, fertilisers, etc.

Core Learning Framework

HG: It really gives you this end-to-end understanding all the way from the basic inputs all the way through to understanding the market and how we really create economic value for our customer in the market. It’s also, what’s the mechanisms that we use to be able to capture that value and then share that across everyone in the value chain? And that’s the key piece is really understanding not just that this is how it all operates, but then this is the mechanisms that are used to be able to create value, capture that value, and then share that value and how that gets shared back to everyone.

And what makes some channels work in one way versus other channels work in a different manner or form. We look at three basic models of value chains.

Intellectual Property Insights

SPL: It really does open your eyes, particularly if you are quite industry-centric in your day-to-day – If you’re really in the dairy industry or sheep and beef and don’t really understand as much about horticulture. I took away so much, and there’s lots of little gems, Hamish, but one of them was I’d never appreciated plant licencing and breeding and how that IP is controlled and how that flows through the value chain.

HG: Absolutely. In the horticulture industry, that’s the key way that they capture value, because it stops people trying to copy them. We’ve got two different models. We’ve got a model that operates within the kiwifruit industry, which is everyone combined within Zespri. And then Zespri owns the IP. Zespri doesn’t own a lot of things, but it owns all the IP around the plant variety rights for the gold kiwifruit, for the Sungold. And then it also operates in a slightly different model in the apple industry. And that’s the real two key pieces. It’s those plant variety rights which give them protection for an extended period of time and allow them to build a value chain that creates economic value, allows them to capture it and then return it back to the owners of their IP. But also they have a sharing mechanism which allows them to share it across the growers and the other players along that channel.

Rethinking Value Creation

SPL: The other major thing I realised, which is really interesting timing with the sale of Fonterra’s consumer brands, is how a lot of these supply chains are built to not actually have value, because it’s more around operational efficiency and that is the value.

HG: Yes, lots of people are only now coming to the grips with this. In New Zealand government, we’ve had this whole idea about value add, but we don’t actually understand it. Our naïve perspective of value add, is just put a brand on things and sell it to a customer. But there’s a whole lot of value to be created by being the provider of the highest quality ingredients. Therefore, that allows your customers, the processor/food manufacturer, to be able to run their systems a lot more efficiently and deliver a lot more consistent product to their customer.

It’s very expensive to go and work with a final consumer, but stepping back from that and delivering the best quality inputs to them, which are really, really consistent, allows them to operate way more efficiently. There’s huge value opportunities there, which is what Fonterra does. Fonterra is this amazing producer of high-quality specialty ingredients that the top food companies absolutely require from us. And that’s always one of the ‘a-ha moments’ that comes out of it. People realise we don’t actually need all of these brands. We actually spend a lot of money on them.

Global Market Reality

HG: It’s easy to do branding when you’re selling to your own domestic consumers. But New Zealand is the only developed country in the world for which their primary market is not a domestic consumer. Therefore, there’s 180 countries in the world that we sell to. And there’s thousands, well, actually tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of different markets across all those countries that we sell to. It’s very difficult from a branding standpoint to really understand who that customer is and what we need to do with them.

They’re in a different country, different culture, different language, different institutional structures. Often, it’s an ingredient space that actually creates us the greatest value. That’s where we’re creating most of our economic wealth in New Zealand, without us knowing that.

Preparation for International Engagement

SPL: For those who have been fortunate to go in market overseas, what I’ve taken away from it, is how you’ve structured it so that the Nuffielders do the Value Chain tour before they do go overseas, which means that you actually understand your own backyard. So, you’re informed on a value chain before you go in market overseas. Many of us don’t actually understand that piece, do we?

HG: Yes, we often know our little wee piece of the value chain, but we don’t actually understand how a whole value chain operates or works. We know how to make money in our piece, but we don’t actually understand how all the pieces of the puzzle all connect together and collectively how they create value. Then, because we don’t understand that, we don’t actually understand our adjacent value chains, how they operate and how they make money.

Mental Models for Analysis

HG: And so we make assertions about them, which are really assumptions, and they’re actually incorrect. And so it’s only when you walk and understand those different models that they have, that you’ve got this ability to be able to engage and learn and understand how you make money in your value chain. But then you can start looking at other value chains that are operating out there in the world, both in New Zealand, but also overseas. Because effectively, we simplify it down to basically three different models that run.

And that’s the key thing. Once you get it down to that level, you can look at almost any value chain and go, ‘that’s this type of value chain. How’s that different from the ones we’ve looked at? It’s different in this way.’ Suddenly, you’ve got this mental model that you can use and make sense of.

Programme Success Stories

SPL: What have been some of the highlights for you on the programme? It’s been three times you’ve run it? If you think about the people that have been through the programme, that you’ve seen real ‘a-ha moments’ or anything that’s come from it that’s been impressive?

HG: We’ve had a couple of key players who came through, were both chairmen of the boards of a startup on this last programme with a range of farmer suppliers coming into it. They had a massive answer to a-has, and you watched them as their mind changed with the way that they could articulate what they were doing and how they could share that to all of their constituent farmer suppliers.

But also how they could communicate what they were doing to their key industry partners who were processing for them to help them understand how they were doing stuff and the way they were running their business model and value chain and how that differentiated from their market partners, so they weren’t actually in competition with each other.

Organisational Alignment

HG: So that was a really important a-ha, and they suddenly had the power to be able to have a conversation with all those different stakeholders and help them understand how they were different and what that meant for them strategically. And what that meant for them as far as investment goes, how they could communicate with everyone. I’ve watched that happen since the last programme.

They came through… it was this a-ha moment. Now you just watch how their communication and the alignment and getting everyone to… it’s like a rowing eight. They’ve got everyone rowing together in the same direction at the same stroke rate, and they’re just pulling ahead as a result of that. It’s fantastic. It’s got everyone throughout the organisation, all the way from the board through management, to all of their strategic partners, all the way back to the farmers.

They are now all lifting together as they row that eight forward all in the same direction. Before, they were actually going against each other and they were crabbing at times. Now, it’s a smooth drive forward.

Learning Environment

SPL: Lovely analogy. The power is in the visits, but the magic happens on the bus, isn’t it?

HG: Yes, the experience where you look at things is on the visits, but the power and the real engagement and magic is on the bus and the group of people on the bus. The bus becomes our learning environment, it’s our safe haven. What I act as is the ‘honest broker’ to be able to facilitate the discussion and the debate as we go on the bus and we unpack what we’ve seen. But we also help set up what we’re expecting to see. Then people go in there and they look at it and they go, ‘actually, that’s not what I expected’.

Then we unpack where that conflict occurs. That’s really powerful. It’s those discussions and debates as you go along on the bus, that’s where all the power is. That’s where everyone has that real aha moment as they make sense of that. And not only make sense of what they’ve seen, but it’s this application of ‘how does that apply to my business that I run and my value chain that I’m operating in’ and asking hard questions about how you do things and how they need to operate.

Programme Details and Networking

SPL: And you make some fantastic friends. I ended up going to one of their weddings because he married my friend. So that was really nice. But really great networking as well of different people across the city that you probably wouldn’t meet otherwise. For those who are interested, it will run between the 8-14 of February, 2026. Applications will close on the 23rd of November 2025. We’ll put a link in the description below so that you can get all of the information.

It is a five-day tour, and as Hamish said, starting in the Hawke’s Bay and ending in Hamilton. You’re with your group the entire time, staying at various places, and then on the bus, as he was saying there. Thank you very much for your time, Hamish. I look forward to following who ends up on the programme next year. There’s lots of familiar faces, and just Hearing from them firsthand afterwards is pretty inspiring, and just around how much their mind has been blown.

To apply for the 2026 Value Chain Innovation Programme (runs 8-14 February) head to the Rural Leaders site.

Richard Dawkins – from the World to Waihopai. A farmer’s path in rural leadership.

In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Richard Dawkins, 2023 Kellogg Scholar and Marlborough sheep and beef farmer. Richard is also the new Meat and Wool Chair for Federated Farmers.

Richard discusses his family’s diverse 602-hectare farm operation, which includes sheep, cattle, forestry, and viticulture. He shares his experiences abroad and how returning home reignited his passion for farming.

Richard speaks about his Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme journey and research on lamb and ewe mortality, emphasising the need for better data and body condition scoring.

The discussion also covers leadership, collaboration, and the importance of timing when engaging in personal development.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Bryan Gibson, the Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly. This week on the show, we have the new Meat and Wool Chair for Federated Farmers and Marlborough Sheep and Beef Farmer, Richard Dawkins. Richard, how are you?

Richard Dawkins, Farmer, 2023 Kellogg Scholar:
Yeah, good. Thanks, Bryan. The sun’s threatening to shine here, so we’ll take that as a win.

BG: Yeah, being pretty wet down your way, hasn’t it?

RD: Yeah, absolutely. We recorded 138mls in 24 hours, which was a record for us since 1954, but certainly, none of the damage compared to over the hill.

Farming to suit your environment.

BG: You farm up behind Blenheim, and you’re the latest in a long line of people in your family who have farmed there.

RD: Yeah. We’re 30 kilometres southwest of Blenheim, up the Waihopai Valley, or the Avon Valley, just off the Waihopai. I’m the third generation on the land, and my children will be the fourth. My wife, Jess, and I came home a decade ago and since have taken over and have three children.

BG: Excellent. Can you just Can you tell us a little bit about your farming business?

RD: We’re 602 hectares. The livestock side of the business is a composite ewe flock. We’re about 60% sheep and 40% cattle. We also do Jersey bulls, service bulls for the dairy industry, and some Friesians, which are just a straight fattening proposition for the works.

Our motto here has always been, you farm to suit your environment. You don’t modify the environment, you modify your farm systems to suit. We start lambing next week, late July, and main weaning is in November, and we sell all the lambs at weaning.

Last year was a record for us, actually. We sold 96% of the lambs straight off mum at 43. 5kg’s. Composite ewe flock, Jersey Bulls, a few Friesians, but we also have 20% of the property in farm forestry and 135 hectares of viticulture.

BG: Quite a diverse operation you’ve got going.

RD: Yeah, you have to be these days, don’t you? My father said in the late ’80s, 65% of his income was from wool. We’re now down under 1%, so yeah, just need to diversify those income streams a bit.

BG: Now, you mentioned you came back to the farm about a decade ago. You grew up there, I guess. What did you do after school?

Seeing the world before farming.

RD: Jess and I spent significant time in Western Australia. Funnily enough, we were in a different industry. We spent a fair amount of time working in the mines in WA near Kalgoorlie, and Jess was further north in Karata. But then we spent time in the United Kingdom as well, and it was really interesting to see their farm systems. I did a bit of labouring on farms. I worked on a dairy farm, more of an indoor system over there, and did a harvest up in Norwich, drove a lot of tractors.

So, yeah, that was a good experience. Good experience in Australia as well, but really glad to be home now and setting the foundation for the future, I suppose. We’re certainly not planning on going anywhere.

BG: Many, many, New Zealanders in their 20s head off to see the world. In a farming sense, do you think it’s good for people to go off and see, say, the likes of how you did a harvest a Norwich or a dairy farm in the UK?

RD: I think it is, Bryan, but there’s opportunity costs to everything isn’t there. Coming home in my mid-20s and seeing fellows in their teens who were a bit more advanced than me and had left school and gone straight into farming. It took a fair bit of catching up, which was a bit of a wake-up call.

You spend your childhood on the farm, but boy, there’s a big difference between helping dad shift some sheep and doing the tailing and things and helping in the sharing shed versus actually running a farm business. It took some catching up.

That’s what’s been fantastic about Federated Farmers is getting those farmer networks and rapidly expanding your knowledge. But at the same time, look, learning other industries, living in other countries, that was really valuable too.

Building knowledge and leadership skills.

I’ll tell you one positive was when we did come home, we were so full of enthusiasm. We hit the ground running and haven’t stopped, to be honest. Whereas some of my friends who did leave school and go straight into Ag, some of them are just thinking it’s a big wide world out there. Maybe I could go and try something else. I mean, it’s up to the individual, isn’t it? But there’s pros and cons with everything.

BG: Yeah, I often think that we see a lot of exporters and processors take farmer shareholders into export markets to give them an idea of actually what it’s like there and how people buy their food and how chefs cook it, or various other things. I think that global view and getting a first-hand understanding about how the fruit of their labour here in New Zealand is used, it can be really helpful in understanding why certain things have to happen.

RD: Yeah, for sure. I was fortunate enough to go on the Silver Fern Farms and Market Tour last year. We went through China and Korea, South Korea of course. Like you say, fantastic perspectives and quite mind-blowing, to be honest.

BG: Now, you’re a relatively recent Kellogg scholar. You went through the programme just a couple of years ago?

The Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme experience.

RD: So 2023, Phase One, part of K49. The timing for me was perfect, to be honest, in that I’d done a lot of industry stuff by that point. I had a few connections and a reasonable understanding of the bigger picture. But look, to go into Kellogg, it just really supercharged that foundation I had.

Getting those cross-sector connections, people from all walks of life, and hearing those different perspectives as well was hugely valuable and empowering. I guess since I’ve just carried on that journey, I would find very well-invested, I must say.

BG: That network that you build and the people you meet is really important. Of course, another thing they do is you find out quite a lot about yourself, which is good to what you’re good at, what you perhaps need to invest time into improving.

RD: Yeah, look, self-awareness is just absolutely essential. That was a big thing that I took out of it. It can be very confronting, but I think you go in as a bit of an unpolished diamond, and you have those courageous conversations and have that self-awareness.

You may be smooth off some of those rough edges. But some of those things you need to embrace, too. I’ve recognised that. Hey, I’m pretty extreme in this area, and maybe I need to tone it down sometimes. But look, maybe that makes me the man for the job with certain tasks. So, embrace those things as well.

Lamb and ewe mortality, leadership, and learning.

BG: Totally. Now, of course, a big part of the Kellogg Programme is the report you write. You looked at mortality in lambs and ewes?

RD: Yeah. I called it ‘Addressing Mortality in New Zealand Lambing Systems’ because I didn’t want to just purely focus on the lambs. Mortality in ewes is a huge issue as well. The findings were quite interesting. I guess the major takeaways were there’s not actually strong data sets out there.

The actual extent and understanding of the issue is not particularly good as an industry. Probably the lowest hanging fruit for progress is simply body condition scoring and feeding.

On the farm here, we take it to the enth degree, and we lamb our triplets indoors to give them extra care and attention. But look, as an industry, I think getting those body condition scores up and getting those pasture covers up prior and post-lambing is where we’d see the biggest gains.

BG: Now, you talk about data. I guess in a lot of cases, what happens on the farm stays on the farm in some ways in terms of the snow rolls in or whatever down in the high country and losses that no one quantifies in some ways.

RD: Yeah. It’s a real catch-22, isn’t it? In that our strategic advantage, our point of difference is those outdoor lambing systems. It’s free range for sure. How do you balance the welfare aspect versus that strategic advantage? I think the absolute majority of New Zealand farmers and farm systems are geared towards that low input, medium fecundity type breeding.

We do the indoor lambing here because we’re a highly fecund composite ewe flock, and it’s pretty simple at the end of the day, isn’t it? A ewe’s got two teats, and when she’s spitting out three or four lambs, I don’t think it’s controversial to say she needs a bit more TLC.

BG: Yeah, totally. In the drive for efficiency, which has been excellent over the years in the sheep and beef sector, that’s something everyone keeps in mind, I think.

RD: Look, and these composite ewes are amazing. Those ewes that leave the shed with three lambs, their average weaning weights, the combined weight of their three lambs was 110 kilos. That was at 105 days of age. So three lambs, straight off mum to the works, that’s about the most efficient ewe in the country. They’re big ewes, they’re 80 kilos at mating. But when you’re weaning 110 kilos of lambs, it’s worth putting the effort in. I mean, that’s just 1% of the flock, Bryan. Certainly not every ewe, but it is very rewarding when you get to weaning and all your effort pays off.

BG: Your project obviously completed, submitted, but it seems to have been read by some of the organisations that matter in our sector.

RD: I won’t take credit for that, I suppose. But it’s great, really cool to see Beef + Lamb New Zealand pick up a lamb survival module now. I was involved behind the scenes, just having those discussions and organising a few things, bit of a working group. I’ve had a few podcasts and also going to have workshops around the country just focusing on lamb survival. That was one of my key recommendations. So full credit to them. It’s great to see.

Federated Farmers Meat and Wool Chair and further study.

BG: Now, obviously, the Kellogg Programme is based around growing rural leaders in our sector. You’ve come up through Federated Farmers, and you’re the new Meat and Wool Chair. So it looks like you’re taking the ball by the horns in terms of leadership roles.

RD: Like I said earlier, it really did turbocharge things. I did learn a lot, learnt a lot through the process, but I think the biggest thing it gave me was confidence. Like, look, I can go through 500 hours or whatever I invested in. I was part of those deep conversations. I understood everything, had a really good cohort, and it just gave me that confidence to push to the next level.

It made me realise, hey, you are ready for those leadership positions. But it really was a foundation. One of the biggest takeaways for me was it’s fantastic work by the Rural Leaders team. I’ve actually connected the Kellogg Programme through Lincoln and Massey, and actually you can achieve a Postgraduate Certificate in Commerce.

That actually gains you entry to a master’s-level programme. After the Kellogg Programme, I went on to studying a Master of Business, and that’s taken all of that stuff I learned through Kellogg to a whole other level. That’s a fantastic opportunity for anyone. If they’re considering it, I’d be happy to talk people through that process.

BG: That’s excellent. I didn’t know about that. How are things going with Feds? How are you enjoying being on the National Exec?

RD: Look, it has been an absolutely flat out first fortnight. I probably look a bit tired at the moment. AGM and conference, followed by a lot of conversations. Obviously, a lot of media. We’ve had our oral submission to the select committee, and then on to the Silver Fern Farms Conference and all of the governance work that goes on in the background, the advocacy, the exciting stuff, the fun stuff.

But hey, this is a fantastic organisation. You have to govern as well. So, yeah, it’s been absolutely completely flat out. I think that may slow down a little bit, but with advocacy, the work never ends, and then we’ll be full steam ahead, trying to achieve what we want to achieve for not only the meat and wool council, but obviously every member too.

BG: It’s a big job and a big responsibility being the voice of our farming sector to not only the Beehive, but also the wider population of New Zealand, I guess, that you really are the window into that world.

Putting leadership development into practice.

RD: Yeah, you absolutely are. Look, it is a real privilege. When you come under a bit of pressure and you’re finally in this position, I guess your natural style comes out, shines. I’ve just realised that I’m more of a collaborator and a facilitator of these discussions. I don’t have a monopoly on good ideas. I have a fantastic council behind me, 24 men and women who volunteer their time and seven on the executive.

I think you need a bit of courage. Courage takes many forms. It’s putting a line in the sand and saying, this is not good enough, it needs to change. You probably saw that with the oral submission, the bill as it stands, isn’t fit for purpose. But courage is also saying, hey, I don’t know everything. Can I facilitate this discussion? Let’s get four or five people in a room and work out the pathway forward.

I mean, you’re never always going to agree, but at least have that talking to a friend or someone close to you and saying, This needs to change, that needs to change. We need to tidy up this area or that area. Actually, one thing I’m struggling with, which takes a bit of courage, is just learning to delegate. As a farmer, you see a problem, you want to go and fix it. But takes a bit of courage to say, Hey, I’ve got a bit much going on, or, You’re actually better at this than me, so could you please take care of it?

Again, we’ve got this council full of enthusiasm. So, yeah, quite often they’re willing to take up that mantle. And look, it’s just hugely appreciated these people volunteering their time, not for me, but for the whole sector.

BG: If someone’s out there thinking about developing their leadership skills to maybe looking at governance or just their own personal growth, the Kellogg Programme, something you’d recommend?

Get involved, be part of the bigger conversations.

RD: Look, it is, but I think it’s all about timing. I would really I encourage people to do a bit of that local provincial, maybe it’s volunteering any leadership position, and just do a bit of that.

Be part of those bigger conversations, those sector-wide conversations. Join your Federated Farmers and get involved. Join your Beef + Lamb New Zealand, various councils or working groups they have, or your rural advisory groups, things like that. Just get a bit of experience on that side of things, then go for Kellogg.

I think if you were just starting your leadership journey, you might not get as much out of Kellogg as you potentially could. But once you’ve done that foundation work, it’s absolutely fantastic.

BG: Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in Association with Farmers Weekly.

For more information on Rural Leaders, visit the pages for Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarships, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, the HortNZ Leadership Programme, the Engage Programme, or the Value Chain Innovation Programme.

Kate Scott: Front footing the fast-moving regulatory environment.

In this podcast, Hugh Ritchie, 2000 Nuffield Scholar and Hawke’s Bay farmer, shares his leadership journey and insights with Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor.

Hugh discusses growing Drumpeel Farms into a diverse 2000-hectare operation, the impact of his Nuffield experience on his personal growth, on innovation in irrigation and strip tillage, and on the need for better water access and infrastructure.

Hugh emphasises collaboration, global learning, and the importance of leadership development as vital to strengthening NZ’s food and fibre future.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, Bryan Gibson. This week on the show, we have Hugh Ritchie from Drumpeel Farms. Gidday Hugh, how’s it going?

Hugh Ritchie, Farmer, 2000 Nuffield Scholar:
Good thanks, Bryan. And yourself?

BG: Yeah, pretty good. How are things over in Hawke’s Bay?

HR: We’ve got a very nice day. Had pretty big winds last night, which was good. I know we’re just finishing off the carrot washing harvest, and then we’ll get back into maize again. But no, it was a pretty good wind last night. But other than that, we’re good. Been a good summer for growing grass, so can’t complain.

BG: Very good. You operate a pretty diverse farming system over there.

A little about Hugh and Drumpeel Farms.

HR: Yeah, we’re just over 2000 hectares in total. We do about 800 hectares of annual cropping. So half of that’s processed vegetables. The other half is seeds and cereals with a little bit of vegetable seed production as well. And then we have 1500 bull beef on a pastoral block.

We normally finish between 8500 and 10,000 lambs – winter lamb trade as well. So that keeps the business going on many fronts. We haven’t got dairy, and we had deer, but haven’t got deer anymore. So, we do most things.

BG: Has running that operation been the bulk of your farming career?

HR: It has, yes. I left school and did a Bachelor of Ag at Massey. Production and Management was more my side. Then I came home to run the block. In those days, it was 300 hectares. We’ve grown the business quite significantly in that time as a family business. We’re reasonably proud of the fact that it’s up over 2000 hectares, and it’s quite diverse and quite intense.

We have great staff helping. I have a very good stock manager who runs the livestock site, and I tend to stick to the overall management in the cropping. It gives me a wee bit of flexibility and scale to go and do other things.

I’ve been on the Federated Farmers Board. I’ve spent some time on the Nuffield Trust, and recently on the FAR board and HortNZ board as well. So yes, I have done quite a lot of off-farm stuff as well as farming. Currently trying to get water storage across the line in Hawke’s Bay, which is proving rather tricky.

BG: Yeah, that’s been years in the making, hasn’t it?

HR: Yeah, it has.

BG: You were a Nuffield scholar in 2000?

2001: A Nuffield Odyssey.

HR: Adrian (Gault) and I travelled in 2001. I looked at irrigation efficiency and direct drilling till type systems. From there, we brought back the basis of the irrigation New Zealand design and monitoring system. I came back from a course I did at Cal Poly/University with Charles Burt, the director there, on how to evaluate irrigation systems for distribution uniformity.

Went through the Midwest and strip tillage was a big thing happening there in min till. So I brought back a strip till and worked a lot with landwise, which was a sustainable cropping programme here in Hawke’s Bay, where we developed strip till to run in New Zealand.

So, the trip itself had big impact on bringing knowledge back, which I’m pretty proud about. But equally, the trip itself, in terms of forcing you to be off-farm and allow people to run the business and do it for you also created, I suppose, opportunity within to make sure that you didn’t just then beaver away with your head down and not really looking at the bigger picture. So it was a very useful journey to go on.

BG: It sounds like it was useful not only personally for you, but in terms of the way New Zealand Food and Fibre has progressed since then.

Giving back to New Zealand food and fibre.

HR: I’d like to think that that is the core of Nuffield. It’s a personal development journey in leadership, but it’s also because it is funded by people (Rural Leaders’ investing partners), I think there’s a responsibility to bring things back that can be useful. That was the whole concept of it, to my mind, was to go and learn and explore things and bring ideas back that we could utilise in New Zealand.

I know everybody says that we lead the world in agriculture, but there’s some really clever people overseas that are more than willing to share their ideas and learning. You don’t have to re-invent the wheel. You can go and learn from people. That’s a pretty good thing.

BG: And was getting out and seeing the way farming is done in other parts of the world at that young age, good for you in terms of your way of looking at things back home?

HR: It certainly got me out of my shell. I remember driving down the interstate in the US, and 2000 was when the UK had foot and mouth. So, I moved to the US pretty quickly. And again, obviously, irrigation and direct drilling was probably their forte.

Nuffield and getting out of your comfort zone.

HR: But It was quite interesting driving in the States and I’d just see something that was interesting or something going on, and I pull over to the side of the road and jump the fence. And you could see these guys looking at you a bit sideways for a while, and eventually they’d stop and you’d go and have a chat. I wouldn’t do that in New Zealand necessarily, but over there, they probably are never going to see you again. If it went badly, you could just walk away.

But it was an incredible journey to see people, they really explained what they were trying to achieve. I visited the conservation information centre, again, because timings were out with the universities, And Dan Tauri, who was running that centre, and he just rang people up and said, hey, I’ve got this New Zealander looking at these things.

I think it’ll be interesting if we talk to you and just set up a whole lot of visits. So it was very spontaneous. Which is something we probably don’t always do a lot of – and just taking the opportunities and meeting people, and then they would send you on to somebody else. I was probably not that outgoing at that stage. And so you had to get over not wanting to push people or ask for things.

It was quite a learning journey there, but it was just amazing how willing people were to give their time and information to help. I think New Zealand reflects that and does that too. It’s a two-way street, but certainly that was eye-opening to me, just how open people were to share.

BG: You’ve gone on to take on some pretty big leadership roles in the farming sector. Obviously, Nuffield might have been a good base for that, good grounding.

Nuffield and the global perspective.

HR: Certainly, I think, as I said, Nuffield gave you that broader picture of what was happening in the world. We could sit back here and moan about things or moan about pricing. You really had to understand that we are a small part of a very big system, especially within the cropping scene in terms of direct import and things like that.

There was no point moaning about price because if someone could import it cheaper, that’s what was going to happen. We had to really get on side with how do we make our systems better, more efficient, more cost-effective, and grow that way. That was very useful.

I think coming back and sitting in Fed Farmers meetings when people were trying to give the millers or the bakers a hard time about not paying enough for wheat, and you just had to say, well, occasionally it is what it is. And so we can either agree to grow or not. But there’s no point beating the guys that are going to buy your crop, because it’s probably not going to do anything for your relationship.

BG: It’s funny. I was in a conference last week talking to someone, and they thought the goal should be that all of New Zealand’s agricultural sector should be like our arable sector, which has always been small and nimble and knows its place in the world and has innovated to make sure it’s sustainable. That’s a good model.

Innovating in the arable sector.

HR: It is. But again, I’ll be the first to admit at the moment, it’s really hard work making arable pay and sitting on the HortNZ board and looking at what IP good varieties of apples can make in the market. Or you look at kiwifruit and how well that’s going with dedicated export and serious funding around marketing and driving the supply. I mean, a really good example to follow.

I am really proud that we set up the Cultivate Ventures thing and during my time with FAR to try and create that work stream to find ideas and innovation that we can be nimble about and follow. But Certainly, we do have to, I think, do things differently going forward within the arable sector because things haven’t really changed. There’s big players out there that can produce volume commodity crops.

We’ve really got to look to what is the alternative? Where’s our niche play and where can we really drive value? If there’s a frustration I have, it’s probably the fact that just in the recent times, we see the influence of the primary sector pulling New Zealand’s economy around and making trade surplus. And yet, where is the science, technology, or the resource running?

Water is the key.

HR: We’re getting better, but trying to get water on the side to provide reliable supply should be easy, especially when it’s going to backstop a primary sector that can then grow and do things. And where’s market or trade and industry helping? I just think we don’t really get a strategy that lines all the things we can do up to really make the most of it. We leave it to the individual, and sometimes that becomes a very hard push.

BG: Yeah, the water piece is really interesting. You brought back some innovative ideas in 2000, but we’re still having the same conversations about how, where, and why when it comes to water storage and that sort of thing.

HR: What I brought back was efficiency and distribution uniformity and how do we make what we’ve got go as far as it possibly can? Because as we all know, it’s not cheap to pump water and put it through irrigators. So, you have to make sure you get the best bang for your buck from that.

So that was the efficiency side. And that, I think, goes without saying, we should be striving for that when it comes to water. But when it then comes back to at the moment, this mentality, I think, is almost how do we cut the pie up, the current pie up smaller and smaller and make all those things happen. Whereas we actually aren’t water short in New Zealand.

We’ve got a huge primary resource there. I’m not saying we waste it, but I think we shouldn’t be afraid to utilise it to the best extent. I just look across the ditch at Australia, Murray, Darling Basins somewhere like 115 % allocated. Canterbury and here in Hawke’s Bay, probably the max out at about 7% and 3% respectively. We’re not even getting close to pushing the boundaries of the available water, but absolutely, we have to do it as efficiently as we possibly can and be mindful of the environment.

I just think we shouldn’t be afraid to look at how do we grow that pie because that’s what we can then grow value and further productivity gains on.

The trickle-down effect.

BG: Yeah, and with the climate getting a bit more unpredictable, it’s a great opportunity to build resilience into communities as well, like people who are not part of food and fibre or maybe are supported through their work.

HR: Absolutely. If you look at the Opuha Dam when that was put in, it’s about the only study that’s being done. I think that showed on a MAF report, it was about $6.50 further value created from every dollar spent on farm, on water. And a lot of that went into the businesses, the support businesses in the town.

I think Temuka Transport before Opuha was 20 odd trucks, and now it’s 100 and something. Businesses support businesses, and hence the communities that support those businesses really do grow off the back of getting good water. So to my mind, it’s the enabler. We can talk about everything we like, but it’s the first stage in the process. We’ve got great soils and good climate. We just have to manage the water.

On Nuffield and leadership.

BG: You mentioned earlier, you’ve been part of the governance group for Rural Leaders. It’s obviously something you believe in, something you’d recommend to someone looking to get a good grounding in leadership.

HR: Look, absolutely. I mean, leadership does have to come from within, but the Nuffield Programme has developed so much from when I went through.

I remember going into my interview and there were nine primary sector leaders sitting in a semicircle, and I was sitting in the middle, and they each had a question to fire at me, and you went home.

Now, there’s still the interview process, but we’ve got the global tours that get the scholars together and look at different areas. There’s different focus tours around the world. We do a lot of training with getting the scholars ready to go on their journey. And it is a journey, and it’s a lifelong journey, and the network that you become part of and that you can link into.

It is a very big network that I think if it came together, it would be great. So absolutely I believe in it. And obviously there’s coupling it in now with some of the other programmes, like Kellogg and things, almost a progression, but it doesn’t have to be.

I think the opportunity of creating leaders or supporting leaders is more the thing. As I said, it’s time out of your life, it’s a commitment you have to make, and it’s an ongoing commitment. I’d like to think that part of the nature of the Nuffield Scholar is how to give back to the industry or the bigger picture. Certainly an opportunity not to be missed.

I know it’s difficult with a lot of people with young families and things like that. How do they make the time? And so you have to think carefully about that. But I really encourage partners to be involved because it is quite a liberating experience to go and see and visit and get your mind open to the opportunities and the scale.

You can come back quite a different thinking person. So Again, having partners involved to explore and understand that, I think, is quite critical to success.

BG: For more information on Rural Leaders, visit the pages for Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarships, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, the HortNZ Leadership Programme, the Engage Programme, or the Value Chain Innovation Programme.

Hamish Murray: Building stronger on-farm teams by getting out of the way.

In this podcast, Jenni Vernon, 1994 Nuffield Scholar, Farmer, and former Chair of Environment Waikato, talks to Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly, about how a lifetime of leadership in rural communities began with a strong connection to farming and a willingness to step forward.

Jenni also talks through her Nuffield research, the Nuffield experience, and on not underestimating the power of face-to-face communication in a sometimes-disconnected social media age.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I am Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, Bryan Gibson. This week on the show, we have a very special guest, Jenni Vernon, who is the very first woman to graduate with a Nuffield Scholarship. Kia ora, Jenni. How’s it going?

Jenni Vernon, Farmer, 1994 Nuffield Scholar:
Kia ora, Bryan. It’s great.

BG: You did the Nuffield Programme in 1994. What drew you to that? Do you have a background in farming? Did you grow up on one?

A strong connection to farming.

JV: My father was a rural bank manager, but my mother’s parents were farmers in the Ruahine Ranges at a little place called Rangawahia. My farming life really started following my grandfather around learning to ride ponies. In those years, 50% of his income was from wool. We used to do sheep dipping – plunging them in the sheep dip.

We used to have to pluck wool off dead ewes and off the barbed wire fences. That was my introduction to farming at a very early age. I always had a passion, really. Then I was led by a very good school friend to join the Young Farmers Organisation. And from there, just got involved with Young Farmers, became National President, and actually always worked in rural areas when I was a primary school teacher in Waipukarau.

Through Young armers I met my husband. We settled, or he lived on the Raglan Coast at Tāwhata on a small dairy farm. So, that was my real hands-on, ownership, full nine yards of being a farmer, and have done so ever since.

BG: What drew you to Rural Leaders and to apply for the Nuffield Scholarship?

From Young Farmers to a Nuffield Scholarship.

JV: I guess it was my experience through Young Farmers. I did 13 years there and went on to be National President. In 1985, I first did the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme.

Just through opportunities and leadership roles, I could see that to do something like a Nuffield, where it really does extend you, not only your personal development, education-wise, but your international perspective too.

We are at the bottom of the world, all our exports, everything is offshore. That was one of that bigger picture issues. I guess Nuffield for me was a bit of a circuit breaker in my career because prior to winning my scholarship I was actually a divisional director for the New Zealand National Party. I was working there for eight years managing; I always said, ‘…people, paper and money.’

Many thought I would head down the line of becoming a central MP, but I don’t think that was really me. This opportunity to have a go at applying for Nuffield and gaining further leadership roles and a bigger worldview – came up, and I was fortunate to be selected and travelled in 1994.

It definitely met my expectations of being extended personally. But I’ve had a lifetime now of connection and value and actually being able to mix and meet, not just internationally. Within New Zealand we have amazing rural leaders, and I feel very privileged that I have learned a lot from those people. Our paths would never have crossed if I hadn’t done that.

That led me into a whole lot of other leadership opportunities. It really was a diving board into my future leadership roles, passion for rural communities and agriculture in general.

BG: What did you focus your scholarship on?

Nuffield research still relevant 30 years later.

JV: My research looked at the deregulation of the Milk Marketing Board, which was big thing in the UK at the time, and also looking at cooperatives.

Just by chance, one of my fellow Nuffield friends from Zimbabwe, Helen Locke, was the first woman to be selected from Zimbabwe, that same year. She was studying the Dutch flower industry because she had a huge flower enterprise. They exported their flowers to Europe through the Dutch market. That really was probably, for me, the highlight of my Nuffield because that really opened my eyes to the consumer market and how fickle consumer markets can be for something a fragile product like flowers.

It also opened my eyes to the amount of research and development that the Dutch government was spending – because flowers and seeds are a big export market. That was probably the highlight.

Even today, that study, and it’s what, 31 years ago that I did my scholarship, that is still relevant today, the consumer market. One day they want red roses, and the next minute, they want some dried weed that you find in the back garden or in the paddock.

We were privileged to see the back of the Dutch flower market, it’s absolutely huge. If it’s not sold, it’s just thrown out. It’s the equivalent is something like eight football fields and all these flowers had been flown in. If they didn’t want them that day, they were gone.

That meant that back in the countries like Zimbabwe and quite a lot of South American countries, they didn’t get any income. That was it. You’d produce that flower or product, and it took how long to grow it and then export and everything else.

What was equally interesting, an so was the deregulation of the Milk Marketing Board, because I looked at a company which is well known nationwide or worldwide, Kerry, in Northern Ireland, an island, and the influence of how they diversified their portfolio out of milk and into other industries. Then, of course, we I’ve got cooperatives, Fonterra, for example. Actually, 31 years later, my topics haven’t actually become obsolete, and I still look back and think I was very privileged to have that understanding way back then.

BG: Now, obviously, you went through this leadership programme, and as you touched on, it led to decades of leadership roles since then. Can you walk me through some of the greatest hits?

A career in leadership.

JV: Some of the greatest hits. Well, I had the privilege of being on the New Zealand Rural Leadership Trust (Rural Leaders) Board for six years. We went through that transition where we amalgamated the Kellogg and the Nuffield Programmes together.

I look at where the Trust is now with the other programmes. I was asked this question recently because I do a little bit of mentoring for women in leadership. One of the greatest hits was really to be actually Chairman of Environment Waikato, where we led the protection of Lake Taupo.

My greatest achievement was that my signature was on that paper protecting that lake forever. Now, it was a huge challenge. It was the first time farmers had to be consented. It was tough. There’s a lot of Māori, undeveloped land that will never be able to be developed to its economic potential to save the lake.

But that whole process and programme – to think that forever. I mean, we know that the lake’s water quality is going to deteriorate a little bit before it gets better, but it’s not long term. It’s going to have a better future than what it was probably looking like.

The most productive conversations are face-to-face.

BG: It seems we live in a bit of a sound bite world with social media and that thing. Being angry is commodified in some ways, which doesn’t help with actually thinking about the bigger picture as a nation.

JV: I guess I was privileged or otherwise that my term in local government, we didn’t have the influence of social media. I mean, yes, people could get angry with you, and yes, we were yelled at, but it was more face to face. It was in the local community hall or it was out in the field, standing on the ground, talking face to face.

There wasn’t this anonymous or down the line Facebook stuff. I mean, it was the beginning of, but certainly we didn’t have those anonymous Facebook conversations where nobody has any ownership. We owned it and we had to face up to it. I openly admit that there were times when it wasn’t very pleasant, but it was face to face.

It’s much harder to have a face to face conversation and be really nasty because there’s always a way through it. You can at least talk through the issues even if you want to raise your voice for the first ten minutes, generally, people calm down.

You’re right, the social media, I mean, I’m really glad, sounds very selfish, but I’m glad I’m not in local government or even central government now, where I think it’s sad that people find the need to hide behind the social media tool instead of actually upfronting. I mean, you can write submissions, that’s fine, but upfronting, honestly, within hall meetings and face-to-face. It’s a different world, a very different world. It’s one I struggle with at times.

BG: Now, you mentioned you still do some leadership mentoring? Do you have some work in that space? Yes. Are the attributes and skills and qualities of a good leader in the Food and Fibre sector, are they the same as they’ve always been?

Rural leadership pathways.

JV: They are, Bryan. In actual fact, one of the things that really concerns me is that we had a nice pathway into leadership roles in rural communities. When I first started, like young farmers or federated farmers, and then say your dairy board or apple and peer marketing board or whatever you wanted to do it. People seemed to want to embrace that.

Today, it seems harder for that pathway. I do have concern about people, how do you get into that leadership role? I do think sometimes that people have this view that once you’re a director or you’re on a board, that it’s easy, but it isn’t. It’s not fluffy stuff. It’s absolutely you’ve got a fiduciary duty. I think probably it’s harder now, because of time to run your business and the pressures and the responsibilities to take up some of those leadership roles. But certainly, if you do, it is exciting, and that’s where you can influence.

If you want change, it’s no good sitting in the back paddock and complaining. You’ve got to come to the front gate, and you’ve got to get out of your farm gate, and you’ve got to engage, and you’ve got to be part of a group, and that will lead you.

Some of the catchment groups, I look at them now. Some of those leaders, like Anna Nelson, for example, started off leading a big catchment group in, and now she’s Chairman of Silver Fern Farms.

It’s great to see that there is a pathway, but it is challenging. It’s still not easy for any generation to take it up because you have to, well, sometimes your business does suffer, but we do need to see people wanting to do that because we need a strong rural voice. The issues are not going to go away. They’re going to be more challenging, whether it’s environmental, whether it’s markets, or whether it’s political, dealing with your local councils or whatever. I mean, the issues are not going to go.

That’s the other thing that I look at and reflect is it’s harder for succession for family farms as well. That’s one of the other things that I have a bit of a concern about.

BG: Now, you mentioned that some of those tried and true pathways weren’t as strong as they used to be. But of course, there are the Rural Leaders Programme, obviously something you’d recommend to people.

Applying for a Nuffield.

JV: Totally, Bryan. It’s interesting. A lot of people go, Oh, I could never do that. I look at them and I go, Why not? The only thing stopping you is not applying. Because I’ve had questions like, how come you won a Nuffield Scholarship? Because, I mean, to be honest with you, Gordon and I only milked 180 cows on the Raglan Coast. We weren’t big-time farmers. But it was because I applied.

I applied myself in making sure that I was well prepared. I understood the dynamics of agriculture in New Zealand, the primary sector, but also internationally, and had a go. I also had mentors. I don’t mind saying it that John Kneebone was my… until he passed away, he was my mentor through my Nuffield, through being on the regional council for a lifetime.

If you can find somebody like that that helps you gain that confidence, because a lot of it is about confidence. That’s what Kellogg and Nuffield gives you – that confidence. People could say, I don’t have those qualities. Well, I could have looked in the mirror and said, well, neither did I. But actually, you’re surprised when you lift the lid, what’s underneath, and you can actually do it if you really want to.

I mean, I would never have guessed that my leadership pathway would have been what it has been over the last 50 years. Because if you looked at my school record, I was not a school prefect. I never won any prizes. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So, it’s that one opportunity that taps into that reserve. When people say to me, I couldn’t do what you do. I say, No, you just don’t want to – but you can.

Phil Weir on Nuffield’s global perspective, sheep and beef farming, and industry good.

In this podcast, Phil Weir, 2020 Nuffield Scholar, Farmer, Director B+LNZ and Associate Director AGMARDT, talks to Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly, about the positive value industry good brings to farming.

Phil also talks through some of the challenges and opportunities for sheep and beef farming and how his Nuffield Scholarship and research has given him a valuable global perspective.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

You’ve joined Rural Leaders’ Ideas That Grow podcast. In this series, we’ll be drawing on insights from innovative rural leaders to help plant ideas that grow so our regions can flourish. Ideas that Grow is presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly. With me on this week’s show is Phil Weir, 2020 Nuffield Scholar. G’day Phil, how’s it going?

Phil Weir, Farmer, 2020 Nuffield Scholar, Consultant, Farmer Director B+LNZ and Associate Director AGMARDT:
Hey, Bryan. How’s it going?

BG: Pretty good thanks. Now, you’re a farmer in the Waikato, and also sit on a board or two, don’t you?

PW: Yeah, I’m, first and foremost a farmer in Te Pahu in the Waikato. We’re sheep and beef farming here, and I’ve been doing that for about seven years. Had a range of other roles in an agribusiness prior to that, and then did a Nuffield Scholarship in 2020, which we’ll probably touch on because it was an interesting time to do that.

Since then, I’ve become a farmer elected director for Beef + Lamb New Zealand, and that also involves the New Zealand Meat Board and an Associate Trustee with AGMARDT. And then do a little bit of consulting for AgFirst Waikato. So, I keep myself busy enough and a nice diversity of things going on. So nothing never gets too boring, right? That’s great.

BG: That’s where I met you the first time was when you turned up for your first Nuffield weekend, wasn’t it?

Doing a Nuffield Scholarship during COVID.

PW: Yeah, I think so. I think we were getting media training at that point, Bryan, about how to talk to journalists and then that thing. So hopefully, some of that flashes back to me, I guess, today. But yeah, we were down in Wellington at that point preparing for… That would have been 2019, and we would have been preparing for what a Nuffield Scholarship was to look like.

Ultimately, the experience I had was a wonderful one, but probably one that was a little bit different than when we were sitting when I first met you and in 2019. But I think the whole Nuffield thing, I think this year is 75 years of Nuffield, and I was really lucky to get a scholarship. As I mentioned, did it during COVID, which meant that some of the travel arrangements didn’t happen right away, but absolutely, we did at some point get to go around the world and see some fantastic agribusinesses.

I think one of the cool things was reflecting prepping for this was we did the first Value Chain Programme around New Zealand, so Rural Leaders are now running a programme which looks at how good New Zealand agribusiness and agriculture and growing is.

And we were lucky to be the forced guinea pigs for that because we couldn’t go abroad. And so we got the chance to go and have a look at the best growers and best Agribusiness is in New Zealand, and I think it’s fantastic that programme now has been created probably out of the back of that.

I think it’s so valuable to go and look at what’s in your own country because we do so many things really well. That was one of the lucky things, I guess, about a COVID disruption. Every cloud has a silver lining.

BG: That programme’s going great guns these days. As the old ad used to say, ‘don’t leave town until you’ve seen the country’. Did you grow up in a farming family? Have you always been rurally focussed?

A call back to the farm.

We grew up in a small dairy farm, so I showed Ayrshire Cows as a teenager and a child. My wife brings up some of the photos with me leading cattle around the ring.

We grew up on a small dairy farm on the outskirts of Hamilton. In. It was fantastic. It was the classic family farming upbringing. We were probably fairly poor, but we didn’t want for anything, I guess. We were lucky, we were on the outskirts of town, so we got the best of both worlds. Then after high school, I probably tried to get as far away from agriculture as I could, to be honest.

I went and did a social… I started doing engineering and found that wasn’t quite for me. And then social science. And then went and did a master of marine management in Canada. So, for someone to get seasick, it was a bit of a novel thing to go do, but it was probably just a case of seeing the world, right?

Then I ended up living in Sweden with my wife in a range of places before we made it back to New Zealand via Australia and then worked at AgResearch. In a few business roles there. Then the opportunity to come farming on my wife’s family farm presented itself in 2017. We took that opportunity. So, it was full circle, I guess. Probably I tried pretty hard to get away from it, but kept nagging away to come back and have a crack. When the opportunity presented, we took it.

BG: I get that story a lot when I talk to your alumni in the Nuffield and Kellogg Programmes. A lot of them grow up in farming, head off and pursue other things, do things in other fields, see the world. Then, I don’t know, something nags at them, and they find themselves back where it all started.

I think it’s pretty hard to get past the fundamentals of rural life. Particularly, as you become a parent, you have plenty of space, and you have fresh air, and you don’t have some of the challenges associated with having children in urban environments. I think It’s not all roses going back from a corporate or agribusiness to a farming role. Farming is quite hard work, and there’s different challenges to it.

PW: I think that’s probably one of the big drivers. I think that’s what we reflect on that we really like about it, is that life It’s still an opportunity for both us and probably our children as well.

BG: On the sheep and beef farming side of things, it’s been a pretty tough few years, hasn’t it?

Sheep and beef farming now.

PW: It has. Yeah, there’s no doubting it. It’s been tough. Everyone experienced rapid inflation, so your costs escalated significantly. At the same point, we had the global commodities really dipped. So it was tough, particularly for sheep farmers.

There hasn’t been a whole lot of love from wool for a for a long time, and some of the high pricing that existed around COVID for sheep came off at a really unfortunate time. So it has been really hard. I think it’s great now there’s a sense that most people’s budgets are able to balance.

When I hang out with other farmers, I see more confidence. It’s partly just because you know you can make the box balance, and ultimately, you’re working for a profit or to be able to have some improvements. I think, really, there’s across the country, we got smacked with weather events amongst that as well, whether it be Gabriel or Northland weather events.

I think most of the North Island anyway had an event that costs significant amounts to farming businesses. It’s been a hard couple of years with interest rates and other things. But I think it’s on the right trajectory now. One’s going down and the prices are going up. So, I think make hay while the sun shines, Bryan.

BG: Yeah, I’ve been talking to AgriHQ analysts a bit over the past few weeks, and they’re surprised but happy with the way things are looking in terms of export demand and farm gate returns. They don’t see a downside coming soon. It looks like it’s going to be pretty good throughout the season. So that’s great stuff.

The outlook is positive.

PW: I think it’s nice to know that the strong prices are projected to continue. The world’s not without a fair dose of crazy right at the moment, but things could change. But I guess the fundamentals is a bit of a deficit of protein, and the protein that we produce. It’s nice to be in that position at the moment.

BG: Just getting back to your Nuffield experience. Obviously, you investigate an idea, I guess. Your report was on the changing world in farming and diversification and resilience and that sort of thing, wasn’t it?

PW: My Nuffield report, I guess when I entered it, I’d come from a research environment. I believe there’s a whole lot of value in farmers and growers investing collectively. I looked the industry good bodies and how they might best arrange themselves.

I had a particular focus on commodity levies bodies. But I guess probably what I found through that was that there’s a whole lot of industry good activity that goes on. And ultimately, New Zealand does a really good job in doing a lot of that.

We’ve got Beef + Lamb New Zealand, DairyNZ and other organisations, but we’ve got a whole range of other industry good bodies. And to be honest, it probably worked pretty well together. I think I probably looked at it from the angle and I proposed some change that could happen.

The value of industry good to farmers.

PW: I suppose the starting point was, and I guess it’s why I’ve become a beef and land director, is that I see massive value in individual farmers contributing a small amount of money in the form of a levy or a relatively small amount of money in the form of a levy to enable certain activities to happen that we otherwise couldn’t do.

The R&D work and the helping farmers to perform better in areas where you’ve got market values, the stuff that I’ve always been interested in. I don’t know whether it was ‘Tragedy of the Commons’ reading that when I was at university or something like that, but that whole pooling of resources to get a better outcome and stuff that the market won’t fund the area I was interested in.

I was lucky to look at the New Zealand system, but also to look at the United Kingdom and some European examples, Australia and the US as well. I guess probably what the outcome of it was is that when it’s all finished, I don’t think any system’s perfect, but our one does a pretty good job.

BG: That’s really good to hear because I guess in terms of the industry good organisations, you could argue we’ve been through one of the more turbulent times in recent memory, I guess, fuelled by the emissions pricing process, which ended up with a lot of people questioning how farming side of things went through it.

We seem to have evened out on the other side of that now. Of course, this government doesn’t have such a strong hand of regulation on the sector. It’s good to hear that through your insights globally, we look pretty good compared to others.

PW: Yeah, Bryan, I think the He Waka Eka Noa and water and those big media issues are often what people think of as the work that some of this industry good stuff does. But I think probably the thing we often forget is the amount of other work that goes on.

So whether it be the benchmarking work that can enable a farmer through Beef + Lamb’s economic service or a dairy base or some other tool to work out, well, hey, if I have this property and I’m running this system, then how are my peers going economically? What are they spending their money on? How does that work? Those data sets that have been prepared on behalf of industry for many years are really powerful and really important and can help us farm better.

I think there’s also areas where industry good bodies can ultimately collect some resources and they can make determinations around where some of our investment is spent from an R&D perspective. If we look at facial eczema in our area, if it rains today, then I’ll be happy. But in another level, I’ll be worrying a wee bit about facial eczema.

The fact that there’s an industry good body, in our case, doing work on that’s great. It’s not something I can afford. I can’t afford to do that work, but it’s stuff that very much underpins my business. I think we often forget or get caught up in those couple of big political critical areas where there’s a bit of conflict that clouds our overall perspective of all the good stuff that goes on.

BG: And of course, New Zealand being so unique in the world of farming, with its geography, climate farming systems, we’ve really got to do all that stuff here. We can’t just import IP or knowledge from other places because no one does it quite like we do.

PW: We’re so unique, right? There’s not many people produce sheep meat or kiwifruit, for that matter at any real scale. We’re the leaders in that, or us in Australia, and it depends maybe on what product you’re talking about.

Ultimately, we do have a unique primary production system based on grass, and so we have some unique challenges we need to deal with. I think it’s great that for the most part, growers have, whether it be onions, or potatoes, or tomatoes, or dairy beef, sheep, whatever, pulled little bits of funds together to help out the collective. It’s probably builds a problem like cooperatives and other collective models that have been really effective and efficient to helping New Zealand Ag, I think.

Despite your Nuffield experience being curtailed or hit, I guess, with the pandemic, how did you find the whole thing?

The Nuffield experience.

It was a life-changing experience, Bryan. To that point, we were on Tangalooma Island, which is off the Coast of Brisbane, like a tropical paradise, doing this scholar conference for Nuffield when the world fell apart during COVID. I think the group this year are coming to New Zealand. And so what happens there is that 100 scholars from each year converge on one location and discuss global agriculture. So we got the start of that, and then things changed.

But I guess probably what Nuffield provides as perspective, I think. Perspective as to where New Zealand’s agricultural system fits. So the basic thing of it is you get to travel and then you do a report. But through the travel piece, I suppose from a perspective, you get to see a range of different agricultural systems. Our group visited North Carolina, we visited Argentina, we visited Chile, we visited a range of places.

So, we saw agriculture in the United Kingdom. We saw agriculture being done on a range of scales, from massive feed lot systems, to avocados and lemons being growing on areas where there was basically no soil left, and it was all irrigation and social licence issues to do with that.

Then right down to small scale producers, 20,000 sheep, milk, dairy sheds, 100,000 hams hanging up in Iberian ham factories. So, you got the range of scale and perspective. And so I think that made me think about what is the role for New Zealand agriculture. I think the other one that it does is it provides a significant amount of confidence. And I think that’s across all leadership programmes.

Gaining confidence through leadership development.

I did Kellogg a number of years ago, and I think it provided the same thing. Both programmes empower the individual to think that they are credible contributors, that they can have an opinion, that their ideas are important, and that they can discuss and work through those with a range of different people in the industry.

So you get to interact with the people that are running the big businesses, whether it be Fonterra or Zespri, or others, and you get to hear their perspectives. I think that confidence is something that I’ve definitely taken from it. I think, yeah, confidence and perspective are probably the two . I think the other one that’s probably also stuck with me is, I remember Julian Raine talking to us, who’s been heavily involved with rural leadership in New Zealand.

He’s saying that a lot of it’s about how spending as much time as you can to really understand a problem. I guess part of it is it’s a programme, and I think Kellogg as well, they really encourage you to critically think about an issue to go a bit past the social media grab or the particular part of spin or headline grabbing that might be going on and actually think, what is this? Whose perspective is this from? What does it mean for me? What does it mean for the people I might represent?

For me, that was a really powerful learning experience. I’m very grateful for the Nuffield and for the sponsors that sit behind it.

BG: So, you’d recommend it to those thinking about doing it?

Investing in yourself.

You often speak with people that are looking at doing it and there’s no great time to do it. But the reality is you’ll probably have young kids, you’ll probably have… You will have business commitments. And what it makes you do is drop all of that and invest time in yourself and understanding agribusiness or agriculture globally. They used to stick you on a ship and send you off for six months, but now it’s more like five or six weeks. But regardless, it is a circuit America.

The programmes when you’re abroad are so busy, you can’t be running your own business at home. You struggle to deal with the family affairs, and so it provides a real disconnect. That is one of the strengths of it. I think that the best time to do it is now. It’s not going to get any easier to do it. I feel scholarship-wide, very young kids. I have a very supportive wife. I was very lucky in that sense. But I think it’s something you just need to do. The immersive learning component of it is something that’s really unique. I really encourage people to have a crack at it.

BG: Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

You can read Phil’s Nuffield report here.

For more information on Rural Leaders, the Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarships, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, the HortNZ Leadership Programme, the Engage Programme, or the Value Chain Innovation Programme, please visit ruralleaders.co.nz

Hamish Murray: Building stronger on-farm teams by getting out of the way.

In this podcast, Lisa Lunn, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly about her Kellogg research into the use of genetic technologies in agriculture. Lisa’s research presents a balanced view that unpacks the challenges, and the opportunities genetic technologies offer the food and fibre sector.

Listen to this episode of Ideas that Grow, or click on one of the platform icons below to listen on your favourite player:

Episode Transcript

Bryan Gibson – Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’ve joined Rural Leaders’ Ideas That Grow podcast. In this series, we’ll be drawing on insights from innovative rural leaders to help plant ideas that grow so our regions can flourish. Ideas that Grow is presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly. With me on this week’s show is Lisa Lunn, who is a recent Kellogg scholar.

Lisa Lunn, 2024 Kellogg Scholar and Category Manager for Crop Protection at Farmlands:
LL: Hi, Bryan. Thanks for having me.

BG: Where are you speaking from?

LL: Currently in beautiful Morrinsville in the Waikato, where I’m based.

Lisa’s Journey and Passion for the Food and Fibre Sector

BG: Nice. Now, you work for Farmlands, is that right?

LL: Yes, I do. I’m the Category Manager for Crop Protection at Farmlands.

BG: That sounds like a big job.

LL: Yes, essentially, it’s looking after anything related to agrochemical with an agronomy focus across the country. Working in really close with our team of talented TFOs, our agronomists, and our supply chain team as well.

BG: What knowledge and education do you need to get that job?

LL: I went through Lincoln University and got an Agricultural Science Degree, and I spent quite a few years in the sector working in various technical sales roles. I’ve had pretty good on-the-ground experience around the industry. Then this opportunity came up to get into the merchandising team. On my side of things, I bring a bit of technical on-the-ground knowledge, in an incredibly supportive environment with a lot of resources to help on the category side of things as well.

BG: Was the food and fibre sector always going to be your career of choice?

LL: Yes, I think so. I grew up on a small farm in the North Waikato. I think I always lean towards science and agriculture. Heading down to Lincoln to get my qualification was a natural step – Just so passionate about the food and fibre sector. It’s obviously everything starts and stops the food we grow. I’m proud to be involved with a sector that puts food on people’s tables around the world every day. It’s a pretty exciting industry to be part of.

Genetic technologies and the Kellogg research report

BG: We know the food and fibre sector in general, and New Zealand has a few challenges ahead of it. One of them we’re grappling with at the moment is whether to relax the rules around genetic technologies. And your Kellogg’s scholarship report looked directly at that, didn’t it?

LL: Yes, I was part of Cohort 51 that kicked off about a year ago. At the time, it was being talked about, but obviously a lot more has happened in the past year since then. The coalition government proposed some rules, a rethink of the rules, I suppose, that govern the genetic technology space. My report looked into if a change were to happen, what do we need to understand, as a country ,to make sure that any changes implemented are sustainable and the best thing for the country and our export markets.

Kellogg research process and key findings

BG: How do you go about getting the information and putting it together?

LL: Every Kellogg report generally involves a literature review. There’s a fair bit out there on this topic. Genetic technologies are very prevalent overseas, so there’s plenty of information there, and there’s quite a bit of information as well as to how it may impact our export markets.

The other part of that was semi-structured interviews. I spoke to about 16 key stakeholders from across the industry and also environmentalist groups as well, to make sure it was balanced. I had some interviews, and analysed the data as to the main trends that came out of it.

BG: Can you tell us a little bit about what those trends were?

LL: I spoke to a number of stakeholders representing a lot of sectors throughout the primary industries, and environmental groups, to make sure it was a fair and balanced discussion. In the groups I spoke to, no one was outright against a change, but there was plenty of those that were for it, and a portion were supportive but proceed with caution.

There were definite trends there in that a lot of people did support a change, and then probably the main group was ‘proceed with caution’. It was, ‘have a look at what other countries have done, make sure there’s a very good national conversation had so that everyone’s brought up to speed and understand what it means for us as New Zealanders, what it means for our export markets’. All of these things, that if we are to do it, we’ve got to do it right. We’ve got to take our lead from other countries that have done it and who’s been successful and who hasn’t.

Legislation and Global Considerations

LL: There was a group of individuals that I spoke to that were a bit more, ‘let’s find out a bit more information before we can make a decision, and potentially, are there other areas we should be focusing on first?’

A big thing that came out of it was that there are a lot of uses of genetic technologies. One of them, that’s been heavily spoken about, is the ability to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. The group of respondents I spoke to were very clear on saying, ‘this is not a silver bullet’.

It has to be part of a holistic approach that means that we can use other technologies and other mechanisms to help reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. This isn’t just going to be a set and forget. We’ve got to look at the bigger picture and make sure we are using everything we can to make sure we’re hitting the targets we’ve set ourselves and doing the right thing to be sustainable farmers. It’s not something that’s just going to come in and solve all our problems overnight.

BG: The legislation we’re working to now was written in the mid ’90s, wasn’t it? Considering how far the science has moved, it’s definitely time to have another look at this.

LL: Yes, scientific consensus is that basically the technologies have moved faster than our legislation has. As you said, it was written a long time ago, the HSO Act, which governs the space. Initially, when it was written, genetic technologies was a lot more cisgenesis.

There was a lot more inter-species genetic transfer. Nowadays, it’s much more specific with CRISPR-Cas9, and those technologies. There’s also some cases where certain modifications that might happen in the market that’s been exported to, might not even be considered a genetic modification because it’s something that can occur in nature anyway. It’s about having clarity on the definitions and what our export markets would consider genetic modification or genetic gene-editing. And bringing that legislation up to date with the technology we have available to us these days.

BG: That’s the big thing. I think I often find in the correspondence I get on this, that some people think we can do this, so we should, whereas there’s a bigger discussion to have around what does that mean for other things outside of science in terms of society and the way we market ourselves to the world.

The Kellogg Experience and Future Outlook

BG: You mentioned trade agreements already. There are a lot of places who have different ideas what is acceptable or not. There’s a lot to get through, isn’t there?

LL: Absolutely. A lot of the competing nations in the agriculture space do use it, and in some areas it has given them an advantage. But we tend to trade on ‘clean green’ with the NZ Inc. image.

We need to be conscious of the fact that just because we can do it, it doesn’t mean we should. That’s an absolutely fair argument. There are a lot of very valid concerns out there. To name a few, it would be what impact is it going to have on our export market? There’s concerns around the corporate regulations around it.

There’s concerns about coexistence. Can an organic farmer still do what they want to do and be nearby to a farm that’s using GE products? I think it needs to be balanced. It needs to be fact-based.

I think you have valid concerns on both sides of the coin, and they need to be heard and understood and addressed. Some of the literature I read spoke to the fact that our export markets are probably more concerned with us moving in the right direction with our greenhouse gas emissions, water quality, animal husbandry, those things, even though we’re already very good.

But there were areas that, potentially, they’d like to see improvement, whereas in some markets, genetic technologies was less of a buying decision for them. But can we coexist? Can we still have the non-genetic technologies with farms operating alongside ones that choose to take up these technologies? The government has drafted a bill that’s already available for viewing and submissions.

It’s making sure that the discussions that are had our fact base, and it is an emotional topic. Hearing both sides of the coin and looking into what’s best for us as a country, as an agricultural export nation, and as New Zealand does as well, it goes beyond agriculture. Just understanding the technologies that may be available to us – what benefits are they going to bring?

BG: I understand the bill that’s been drafted is loosely based on the Australian system that they’ve got in train. Is that correct?

LL: Yes, it is.

BG: That there is some aligning with our close neighbours, is not a bad place to start, hopefully.

LL: Yes, absolutely. Just taking a lead on some of the nations that have done it and what their learnings have been and going more risk-based assessments as opposed to reviewing the individual technology itself, what’s the end product. They’re definitely taking a lead from Australia’s legislation.

A Transformative Leadership Experience

BG: Your report is out there. What was it like doing it? What was the Kellogg experience like for you?

LL: Fantastic, I absolutely loved it. I couldn’t recommend it more. I was very fortunate to be sponsored by Farmlands to do it. Farmlands are very generous with allowing me the time to head down and do the in-person courses. It was a lot of work putting the report together and doing the interviews, but the whole experience was absolutely incredible – The people you’re able to connect with both throughout the cohort.

The speakers that came to see us, conducting themselves under Chatham House rules meant they were just able to be so free and frank, and you could ask them questions you probably could never normally ask an industry leader or a CEO or a high-powered scientist or politician. You could be very open and transparent and learn whatever you needed to for your own personal development journey.

It was just absolutely unreal. The scope of people that were in the cohort, the knowledge they had, the questions they asked, just a wonderful cross-section of people from across the industry. The main thing we all had in common was we were passionate about the industry and the future of the sector.

BG: You mentioned it is personal development. What does the future look like for you?

LL: I touched on it before: Food and Fibre is my passion. I love being part of the sector, and I will always remain a part of the sector. I’m excited to be part of it here in New Zealand. It’s such a small industry. Everyone knows everyone. It’s a great thing. Everyone’s genuinely passionate to turn up to work every day.

I’ve been with Farmlands for about two and a half years now, so I’m really happy to get stuck in there and keep building on my role and working with a fantastic team I’m lucky to be a part of. Whatever I do, it’ll be involving the sector.

BG: For those out there who might be thinking about getting to work on something like the Kellogg programme, you’d recommend it?

LL: Absolutely. Rural leaders do a fantastic job of giving you all the resources you need, all the tools you need in your toolbox to become a better leader, to be more self-aware, to understand the skills you do have and the skills you could improve on.
The networks are astounding, and it gives you really good context for both internal
New Zealand-centric trends and aspects of the sector here, and also a really good handle on geopolitics and things that are happening overseas.

It helps you understand what trends may be emerging and how they could affect us here, as well as teaching us really good soft skills, like improving your critical thinking skills and time management and all sorts of things that come out of it.
Everything I gained from that is absolutely invaluable, and I’ll continue to use it in my career.

Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

You can read Lisa’s Kellogg Report ‘Understanding a future with genetic technologies in New Zealand agriculture’ here.

For more information on Rural Leaders, the Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarships, the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme, the Engage Programme, or the Value Chain Innovation Programme, please visit ruralleaders.co.nz

Kate Scott: Front footing the fast-moving regulatory environment.

In this podcast, Dave Nuku, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly, on his work with Ngamanawa Incorporation and about how adopting a philosophy of Kaitiakitanga can be in alignment with a strong and profitable business.

Listen to the podcast here.

Bryan Gibson – Managing Editor of Farmer’s Weekly.
You’ve joined Rural Leaders’ Ideas That Grow podcast. In this series, we’ll be drawing on insights from innovative rural leaders to help plant ideas that grow so our regions can flourish. Ideas that Grow is presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly.
You’re with Ideas That Grow, the Rural Leaders podcast. I’m Bryan Gibson, Managing Editor of Farmers Weekly. This week, I’m talking to Dave Nuku. How’s it going?

Dave Nuku, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, Ngamanawa Incorporation.
DN: Hi, good Bryan and you?

BG: Going good, thank you. You’re one of the very recent Kellogg scholars. I understand your report has only just come out.

DN: I’ve had a fantastic experience with Kellogg. Just finished my report, so glad to have had that completed. Yeah, it’s good to be here with you today.

BG: Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from?

Bringing a global perspective to New Zealand food and fibre.

DN: I’m from the Bay of Plenty, up here in Tauranga, and have some strong whakapapa connections back here. My family have been here for a long time. I’m currently working for Ngamanawa Incorporation, managing a block of Māori land of around 4,000 hectares in the lower Kaimai.

BG: Awesome. I was born in Tauranga, so I know the place pretty well. Has most of your career been in the food and fibre sector, or is that something relatively new to you?

DN: To be completely honest, it’s very new to me. I do not have a background in the food and fibre sector. I actually spent two decades overseas working through Southeast Asia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia. So I lived based in Malaysia, Hong Kong, and Singapore for several years in a completely different industry.

I was working for a multinational company over there running health clubs and resorts across Southeast Asia. So, it’s a big change from that perspective. I moved back home to Aotearoa a few years ago, just after COVID, and was fortunate enough to make a transition into the food and fibre sector with the Incorporation which our family have got long-standing connections with. It was a nice fit, but a very different industry – and all the differences that come with changing industries and countries.

BG: Yeah, that is quite a change, isn’t it? How did you find your time overseas? You’re obviously there a long time. environment.

DN: Absolutely loved being overseas, loved travel. My wife and I have got two kids as well, and so they were born overseas. So very much an international whanau. We did a lot of travel when the kids were young, and as they grew up. It was a constant part of our lives.

We were working in these different markets, so it was quite dynamic. Quite different to New Zealand. We were living in Malaysia and Singapore – so that’s closely connected to a lot of other countries, very easy to be mobile and get around. Businesses, languages, all of those things are very different, more nuanced, more complex than New Zealand in industries that we’re working at, but loved it. Absolutely loved it.

Having said all of that, it’s great to be home. I think Aotearoa, New Zealand is the best country on Earth and absolutely love living here, working here, and being home with my family.

BG: Tell me a little bit about the Incorporation you’re working for now.

Managing, leading, and stewardship.

DN: Yeah. So, Ngamanawa Incorporation has a large land block up in the lower Kaimai’s. Mainly the Incorporation has its roots in forestry. It’s around 2000 hectares of pine, radiata pine, and around 2000 hectares of native forest. In the native forest, we have a conservation team of five full-time Kaimahi or staff who are involved in our predator control efforts there.

We do everything from monitoring the waterways, the habitat for native species, whether it’s tuna/eels or kōkako, or kiwis. We have a lot of those really special native species up on the block. As well as forestry, we’re also involved in horticulture. We have a kiwifruit orchard with golden and green kiwi fruit in the Kaimai area, a little bit closer to Tauranga.

Then we also have some investments in other horticulture crops, strawberries on Matakana Island and some rocket apples in the Hawke’s Bay. So, quite a mix of different business interests across the Incorporation. It keeps you busy and it’s varied.

BG: Yeah, a lot of variation and diversity there. I guess there’s a lot of different farming techniques, business management, and you’ve got the native block as well, which is more of a conservation approach, I guess. A lot to keep on top of.

DN: I think it’s the variety and that diversity that makes it fascinating for me. I have a really strong international business background, but it’s nice to be doing something that is very, I suppose, organic and something working for an entity that we’ve got a long-standing connection to.

The block, the incorporation is made up of a number of different blocks of traditional Māori land, that has been in Māori ownership for hundreds of years. It’s nice to be taking that and really making sure that it’s productive in terms of our forestry, and then also in the indigenous forest space and the native bush, really looking at preserving the native species there.

We also have a lodge for our shareholders, so you can book the lodge and go up there and enjoy it with your family. It’s nice on a lake with lots of waterways in the middle of the bush.

It’s also about connecting people to land as well. Then the horticulture and the kiwifruit is really that’s a lot of the day-to-day operations. Long time between drinks in terms of the business model for forestry, but with Kiwifruit. They’ve got a more seasonal cash flow in business requirements and operations there.

BG: How are things tracking for you guys at the moment? Has it been a good year? Things looking pretty good?

DN: It’s been a fantastic year for kiwifruit in general across the Bay. It’s been something that the industry has really needed. We had a couple of rough years there with COVID, and there were a number of weather events.

Also, some of our growers down in the Hawke’s Bay area were really affected by cyclone Gabrielle. But overall, the industry has had a great season, a really strong crop. I think a record season, just under 200 million trays, which is around about a 25% increase on the previous highest year for Zespri overall, who sell our kiwifruit into market.

It’s been a record crop. Growers have really benefited from it. Last year’s growing conditions were excellent. Not only did we get good volume, but it also got really good fruit quality, which has held up well in the markets. We sell that through into Europe, China, and other places.

You’ve got to celebrate the wins, and we’ll take those because horticulture can be challenging. There’s always weather events, and you’re always on your toes, and no two seasons are the same. We’ll just take the win and then really focus on trying to do that again this season.

A background into how a Māori Land Incorporation works.

BG: Now, probably most of our listeners have a bit of an idea about how a Māori Incorporation functions and is structured. But could you just give us an overview of how that works?

DN: Absolutely. The Incorporation is governed by a committee of management. They function more or less like a board, I suppose, if you could think of it in that way, with some really small, subtle differences. But if you think of them as a board that are duly elected by the shareholders to represent the shareholder interests in the land block.

The Incorporation itself is an amalgamation of five different blocks in the lower Kaimai area that were all brought together just for the economies of scale that comes with a motivating all that land, which led to the 4,000 hectares that we currently have. Then what ends up happening is all of the owners in those individual land blocks more or less get shares in the Incorporation as opposed to a direct ownership in the land itself. That’s the governance structure and the ownership structure is more like a shareholding reporting into the committee of management.

The big difference between a Māori Land Incorporation versus a trust where the owners of the land still retained a slightly different ownership model. The Incorporation has been around for around 50 years and came together in the 1970s to amalgamate the land blocks to secure the land over the long term.

At that time, we were facing some challenges with the confiscation of land through the Public Works Act for the hydro scheme that’s currently up in the in the Kaimais. As I said, that was the origin story of the Incorporation. It’s come together as a result of that. We got into forestry and then have diversified over the years.

Kaitiakitanga – guardianship/stewardship. Adopting the long term view.

DN: So, generally speaking, Māori Land Incorporation, long term holders of assets in land, long term view, primary in nature, forestry, horticulture, looking to diversify. We have some other stocks and portfolio financial products. But everything we do isn’t really driven on a quarterly basis in terms of returns. It’s much more about where we want to be in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

BG: That’s something that a lot of people are thinking about more and probably should think about more is having that longer term view of where you’re going. Because you’re right, that quarterly reporting makes you overegg the omelette in some ways.

You can drive production to meet targets and then have some issues to clean up afterwards. Whether a more measured approach with more long term targets seems to be a better way to take care of our land?

DN: I think so. That’s definitely our view on it. It’s more of the Kaitiakitanga view. Kaitiakitanga, meaning guardianship or stewardship. I’d describe it in that way – which was the subject of my report. What I wanted to do, having come back from extensive experience overseas in more international markets, where stewardship, guardianship, long term, intergenerational ownership, wasn’t really anything that I worked in overseas.

I worked for companies, many of whom were private equity owned. So, a different modus operandi, so to speak, a different timeframe, buying and selling companies, building them, selling them to the next person.

Coming back into this environment with a much more long term view, real care for land and nature, led me to study Kaitiakitanga, which is the subject of my Kellogg report. The concepts and all of the different influences, in fact, as they tie into Kaitiakitanga, I thought that would be a good way to educate myself and bring myself back up to speed so I can use that philosophy when managing the Incorporation assets and people.

Kellogg and Kaitiakitanga as a pathway to enduring prosperity.

BG: So, your report, as we said just out very recently, is called ‘Kaitiakitanga as a pathway to enduring prosperity’. I was interested that you kicked off by saying a lot of us have a simplistic view of what Kaitiakitanga is.

DN: Yeah, I think it’s most often thought about or used as a term in reference to guardianship or stewardship with regard to the natural environment. Whilst that is a part of Kaitiakitanga, that’s only a small component of Kaitiakitanga.

The broader application of Kaitiakitanga is the idea that one has a relationship not only with the environment, but also with your family members, also with everything within that environment. And with that, we call it Whanaungatanga or kinship. And with that kinship, our relationship, comes responsibilities. And the responsibilities that come from that, Whanaungatanga, or kinship, are responsibilities of care and Manaakitanga, looking after the environment, looking after others, looking after yourself, respecting the spiritual dimension that are imbued in all things.

We believe as Māori that things have a spirit, they have a Wairua, they have a Mana, they have a life force, or Mauri. Just acknowledging and respecting those things, particularly in the Taiao, but also one’s self. It’s a real all-encompassing philosophy in terms of how one can approach their life.

For me, in the way in which I think about it for the Incorporation. I see myself as a Kaitiaki of the assets that are within my responsibility, making sure that they’re not only produce good results, but they don’t do harm, whether it’s to the environment.

We look at things like forestry and our aspirations there to convert more of that into indigenous forests over time, perhaps retire parts of that. We also take the responsibility quite seriously and invest a lot into the conservation space, trapping possums, predators, to be able to restore some of the natural bird life on our block, to get the bird numbers up. To do that, you need to suppress the predators because they tend to kill all the chicks and the eggs and so on and so forth. That’s an example of Kaitiakitanga there.

Our team have rituals or practises that they use each day when they go out into the bush. They protect their Wairua or their Mauri. They’ll say special Karakia or incantations or prayers to protect themselves.

They’ll also ask for blessing and protection when they do the work in the bush. Then likewise, within the organisation itself, our philosophy is driven by Kaitiakitanga in terms of starting meetings with Karakia, with prayer, acknowledging people within the meeting or anyone who may have, for example, for us as Māori, in speaking back to that kinship and relationship connection.

We’ll also acknowledge those who may have passed on, their family connections and those within the region or the Mutu of Tauranga, the rohe of Tauranga will acknowledge them and do a Mihi to them and their family. So, all of these different practises that feed into Kaitiakitanga are all a part of the way you operate the way that you live and aspire to live.

Can you have alignment between Kaitiakitanga and propseprous business?

BG: As the title of your report suggests, Kaitiakitanga is not in opposition to having a prosperous and profitable business operation, is it? I mean, enduring prosperity, you can make a good living for all of your shareholders.

DN: Absolutely. That’s the aim. I suppose that was really what drew me to the subject they’re not opposing forces. One can be a good steward of the land, good steward of themselves and a guardian, and still prosper and have good economic returns, whether it’s for your shareholder, whether it’s for your Whanau or your business or whatever it is. Those are not things that are opposing their nature. I think that comes back to the long term view.

Then also considering in a broader sense what the return on an investment might be. An example of that would be we most often measure return on investment in dollar terms. Whilst that’s an important metric, it’s not the only metric. For example, we have businesses we’ve invested in, and they have a really good social return for our people.

It’s about unlocking the potential of some of our Māori land, by our people, for our people and creating employment opportunities. Like growing high-value horticulture crops. The case in point is the blueberry investment we’ve made. We know that that investment is not just about a hard and fast financial return. That is also about investing in capability and building skills in high value horticulture.

We can accept that for that type of investment that may carry a higher risk, so to speak. But we think the returns are going to be social in nature as well as ultimately a sustainable, profitable business. We’re prepared to take on a bit more risk because we can see that we measure success differently, so to speak. You have the right size that for your Incorporation in your business.

We’re not going to put all your eggs in that type of investment, but we do take a number of smaller investments that allow us to be more adventurous. Then as those businesses grow and perform, then we can scale them up knowing that they have a good return for our people, for our land, and then also from a financial or Putea perspective for our shareholders.

BG: Obviously, your report looks at this quite in-depth. You’ve looked at the literature, of course, and case studies. You’ve made some recommendations about how to incorporate more of a Kaitiakitanga mindset into a food and fibre of sector business. What are some of those?

Three recommendations to include Kaitiakitana principles into business.

DN: What came out of the report that I did were a series of recommendations that I think I did expect would be the outcome. They are, first and foremost for Māori entities where there’s an opportunity to include Kaitiakitana principles. Those are things like in the culture of the organisation, having Tūkanga, what we call Tūkanga or Māori protocols around the Karakia, Mihi, acknowledgement of people, those who have passed special occasions, opening meetings with Karakia, finishing meetings with Karakia, welcoming new guests into your office with Mihi and Whakatau. That would be one example of something that the Incorporation does.

Also, there are some tools out there that one can use to exercise the Kaitiakitanga in regards to waterways. There’s a really cool tool called the Mauri compass, which allows you to measure the habitat of certain wildlife, wild species. For example, the native silverbelly tuna (or eels) that we have here. We do a lot of work in that space. So, water quality, habitat cover, abundance of life within the waterways, et cetera. Creating benchmarks using the Mauri compass across those different areas. Then setting some goals based on that.

One of the other recommendations that came out of the report was the importance of really capturing Kaitiakitanga and incorporating it into what we call our SAIPO, our strategic investment priorities and objectives document that outlines how we invest in different things and incorporating Kaitiakitanga as a guiding principle. So, that one, we’re investing in things that we’re proud of, that we want to be in, that are going to be good for the Taiao and the environment as opposed to things that aren’t.

That we are also making investments for a certain portion of our asset base. We’re looking at that as a good financial return, but also a good social return as well. And so, we have the lens of Kaitiakitanga, that’s our perspective, and we look at different investments.

Those were the three recommendations, what you can do on a daily basis in your Incorporation to make it part of what you do. Two is, tools that you can use in the natural environment. Three is, how you can weave it into your governance structures or your investment structures so that you’re getting involved with things where you can exercise your Kaitiakitanga.

BG: I talk to a lot of people and do a lot of reading in my job running Farmers Weekly. It seems to me that there’s a lot in the Incorporation’s view of how to run things that everyone could learn whether they’re a family farm in Canterbury, or wherever they are.

It gives a story to someone about the weighing up all of the externalities and the balance sheets of what you’re doing in terms of sustainability, social responsibility, social licence to operate, profitability, that sort of thing. Is that something you think?

Kaitiakitanga - universal principles for a long term view.

DN: I think the principles are universal. I really do think they’re universal. We’re talking about them in a Māori context here, but these are principles that you find in many indigenous populations across the world. I think you’ll find them in non-indigenous populations as well.

Part of the research that I looked into, you’d see new concepts emerging, for example, in the US, around steward ownership models that are really very similar to Kaitiakitanga, where entities that are in the environmental space, in the education space, or the charitable space in the US. They have come up with certain corporate structures that allow them to separate the stewardship values as a separate and enduring part of the governance structure that oversees those companies.

Irrespective of who the owners might be, they’re still held accountable to those principles of stewardship, and that’s really aimed at enshrining those principles of guardianship over these different assets, more common in the environmental space. I suppose my point is that that’s an example of the same concept halfway across the world being implemented and enshrined in legislative corporate law. Because I think it’s a lot of people are wanting to do that.

I think there are a lot of entities out there that are saying, Hey, look, these are really good principles of long term view, not just measuring the bottom line from a dollar perspective, but also from a social perspective. I think that a more holistic view and long term view is better. I mean, anything, even from an investment perspective, if you invest in it for longer, it’s generally better. I think there’s a lot of principles that could apply to any business.

BG: I was reading just the other day about something that applies to the other end of the supply chain, NZ Story, which is part of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, did its most recent survey with Chinese consumers.

They found that after COVID, they were connecting more with their history and felt that New Zealanders, the fact that we embrace our indigenous culture and what we do more than some other colonised countries, was a point of difference for us. So, it’s an interesting thing to think about as well.

DN: I think we’ve got a great story. I think we’ve got the greatest country in the world. I really do. I think New Zealand is an incredible country. I think we do food and fibre really, really well. I hope there’s opportunities to lean into these indigenous narratives and concepts because they’re good for their environment, good for people.

That also sounds, as you’ve said, that they have a powerful resonance with other people abroad and other cultures. In typical New Zealand fashion, we’re probably too humble about it, quite modest. I think it’s okay to say, hey, look, these are things that we do really well. We do lean into it. That’s a part of our culture and our history, and we should be proud of.

The Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme.

BG:Now, how did you find the whole process of going through the Rural Leaders’ Kellogg Programme?

DN: I can absolutely say without any word of a lie or doubt that it was the best leadership programme that I’ve ever done. The most complete and thorough. The quality of the information from the presenters that you’re exposed to is really world-class.

We’ve got some of the best educators presenting content, a wide variety, too. People with military backgrounds, doctors, professors, politicians, farmers, horticulturalists, you name it. Te Ao Māori educators and specialists too. The broader array of leaders in all of these different fields and to be able to listen to them, to interact with them, to learn from them was just incredible.

It was a very, very special experience. Throughout that all, you’ve also got this report that you need to produce. You’re constantly taking in information from these presenters. You’re learning a lot from some of the best young minds, and probably I wouldn’t put myself in that, but more of a more mature vintage, shall we say myself. But they’re really, really great leaders in their own right who come in to do this course. You end up learning a lot from the people around you. That’s very motivating. Iron sharpens iron, so the whole experience has been exceptional.

If I was to say one thing to someone considering doing it, is to absolutely do it, go for it, but do not underestimate the amount of time it’s going to take you, and the focus and commitment that you’re going to need to get the most out of it. It’ll be worth it, but it’s a lot of great work.

You can read Dave’s Kellogg Report ‘Kaitiakitanga as a pathway to enduring prosperity’ here.

Thanks for listening to Ideas That Grow, a Rural Leaders podcast presented in association with Farmers Weekly.

The Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme has been developing leaders for the rural and agri-food sector since 1979.

Key Information

Our Alumni

2026 Applications

The Nuffield New Zealand Farming Scholarship is one of the most valued awards in New Zealand’s primary sector.

Key Information

Our Alumni

2027 Applications

Innovating for our fast-changing value chains.

Key Information

2027 Applications

Fast-track your food and fibre skills, knowledge, and confidence.

Key Information

2026 Applications

Develop horticulture-specific leadership knowledge and skills.

Key Information

2026 Applications

Popular Keywords

Categories

Episode Transcript

A partnership to develop stronger connections with farmers.

Knowledge, confidence and connection in agriculture.

What to expect from the Engage Programme.

Looking at the whole farming system.

Looking closer at the Engage Programme.

Episode Transcript

A diverse background in and out of food and fibre.

Why do the Value Chain Innovation Programme?

What happens on the Value Chain Innovation Programme?

Understanding value chains.

Think differently. Get inspired.

Episode Transcript

Family Farm Background and Evolution

Career Path and International Experience

Kellogg Research Focus: The Future of Arable Farming

Farmer Perspectives: Looking 25-50 Years Ahead

Key Recommendations: Integration and Collaboration

The Challenge of Farm Independence Culture

Personal Leadership Development Through Kellogg

The Need for Disruption and Adaptation

Recommendation for the Kellogg Programme

CountryWide Podcast Transcript

The Four Value Chains

Target Participants

Core Learning Framework

Intellectual Property Insights

Rethinking Value Creation

Global Market Reality

Preparation for International Engagement

Mental Models for Analysis

Programme Success Stories

Organisational Alignment

Learning Environment

Programme Details and Networking

Episode Transcript

Farming to suit your environment.

Seeing the world before farming.

Building knowledge and leadership skills.

The Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme experience.

Lamb and ewe mortality, leadership, and learning.

Federated Farmers Meat and Wool Chair and further study.

Putting leadership development into practice.

Get involved, be part of the bigger conversations.

Episode Transcript

A little about Hugh and Drumpeel Farms.

2001: A Nuffield Odyssey.

Giving back to New Zealand food and fibre.

Nuffield and getting out of your comfort zone.

Nuffield and the global perspective.

Innovating in the arable sector.

Water is the key.

Episode Transcript

A strong connection to farming.

From Young Farmers to a Nuffield Scholarship.

Nuffield research still relevant 30 years later.

A career in leadership.

The most productive conversations are face-to-face.

Rural leadership pathways.

Applying for a Nuffield.

Episode Transcript